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Everything posted by AnthonyB
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Most traditional layout dwellings don't require fire escapes as the stair is your escape and you are trusted to shut your doors at night. In recent decades bedrooms have had escape by a requirement for escape windows giving a clear unobstructed opening area of 0.33 m² and a minimum width or height of 450mm. This requirement, being part of Building Regulations, is not retrospective for single dwellings unless relevant alterations subject to Building Regulations occur (such as having new windows fitted - most pre 1990 build houses now have escape windows as they have had original wooden or metal single glazed windows replaced by uPVC double glazing since 1990) As a G2 listing the windows may not have been replaced or subject to limitations on replacement. A mitigation may have been a more comprehensive smoke/heat alarm system - do you have the legal minimum detector to each landing or to the kitchen and lounge as well?
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FRA recommending FD30 Fire doors & Heat detectors
AnthonyB replied to dansma's topic in Fire Risk Assessments
Yes - it's correct and should have been this way for decades. A lot of housing is improperly provided for as only having been subject to proper fire safety regulation in recent years. If your local authority had operated additional licensing for s257 HMO's (i.e. houses converted to flats outside of modern building regulations requirements) and you were two thirds rental occupiers you would have had the right precautions as you would have needed a license, but as most conversions fall outside this scheme (no additional licensing or mostly owner occupied) they slip under the radar. Here is the source of their action points: http://www.cieh.org/library/Knowledge/Housing/National_fire_safety_guidance_08.pdf -
Ignore the above - here is the official rationale: A fire detection and fire alarm system only provides satisfactory protection of life if it is capable of rousing the principal occupants of the dwellings from sleep (e.g. the adult occupants in typical single-family dwellings). No particular sound pressure level is certain to rouse all occupants in all circumstances. Depth of sleep varies during the course of the sleep period and also varies from one person to another. Greater sound pressure levels are often required to rouse children from sleep than are necessary in the case of adults. Hearing loss, which can occur gradually with ageing, and alcohol intoxication also result in the need for higher sound pressure levels to rouse people from sleep. BS 5839-1 recommends that, if an audible alarm is intended to rouse sleeping persons, a sound level of 75 dB(A) ought to be achieved at the bedhead when all doors are shut, although this will not guarantee that every person will be awakened, particularly if they are under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Most fire detection and fire alarm systems in dwellings comprise smoke alarms, which are usually fitted in, at least, the circulation areas, such as hallways and landings. BS EN 14604 requires that the sound output of a smoke alarm be at least 85 dB(A) at three metres. Most domestic doors attenuate sound by around 20 dB; greater attenuation can occur in the case of solid doors, such as fire doors. It is therefore unlikely that a smoke alarm on, for example, the upstairs landing of a two-storey house will produce a sound level of 75 dB(A) at the bedhead in each bedroom, particularly if the bedroom doors are shut; levels of 55 dB(A) to 65 dB(A) are more likely. There appears to be no evidence to show that lives are being lost due to inadequate audibility of the fire alarm signal from smoke alarms, except where people are incapacitated to such a degree that even much higher sound levels would not waken them. This might be because, in their own homes, people can be roused by an unusual sound of relatively low level compared with the sound level that may be required to wake them in premises with which they are unfamiliar (e.g. a hotel). The historic adequacy of sound pressure levels applies to sheltered housing as well as general needs housing. However, the changing demographic of sheltered housing residents means that the ageing population now found in sheltered housing is likely to be more prone to hearing loss than the general population. Accordingly, when a new fire detection and fire alarm system is installed in sheltered housing (either when the building is first constructed or when a replacement system is installed in existing sheltered housing), it is now considered appropriate for higher sound pressure levels to be provided in the principal bedroom of each dwelling unit than those traditionally achieved.
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Do converted flats require fire risk assessment?
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Risk Assessments
Single stair single escape blocks of flats don't automatically require fire exit signage as it's obvious where you are going. The Government guidance cautions against institutionalising residential accommodation where of no benefit and specifically details exit signage as one example. The emergency lighting is fair enough. There are lots of managing agents and their advisors that don't have a clue when it comes to resi fire safety. I was at a site for a residents right to manage companis' directors after their agent was trying to get them to fork out over £9k on a fire alarm and it was quite clear that whilst some minor works were required there was no need for an alarm system or a switch to full evacuation.(It was a small block of 3 storeys too) 18 months is odd - it's usually annual where the agent doesn't want the liability of doing the reviews themselves, otherwise 2 or 3 years isn't uncommon where the agent does interim reviews. -
Fire doors/Storage on protected stairway
AnthonyB replied to FacilitiesNAE's topic in Fire Doors and Accessories
Self closing doors don't always have catches, a well adjusted closer can sometimes hold the door enough not to warrant one. The forums fire door expert should hopefully give you a detailed answer next time they log on -
Yours is a very common scenario, it's odd the guidance skips the fact in many temporary event layout venues fixing isn't possible. Some local authority guidance accepts that the floor seating cannot always be fixed as per national guidance, but insists they are at least tied in lengths, e.g. https://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/frsholdingevents
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There always was to some extent, it's only in recent years it's been an area looked at to any degree. As there has to be a fire risk assessment for the premises this should detail the level of protection required - it could be a simple upgrade of the existing cupboard, new separation, protective enclosure over the meters, or even accepting the current set up (e.g. if all the electrical boards are in non combustible housings as per the most recent revisions of electrical installation regs)
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Technical standards can be retrospective for fire safety legislation purposes as the statutory bar was removed by the current legislation. The fire risk assessment should determine whether existing legacy precautions or remain adequate. So it's not appropriate to blanketly require current standards nor is it OK to automatically assume that because something was OK xx years ago it is now. A competent person would need to demonstrate why the existing standard of installation that isn't to current (or even the past for some time) specifications does not adversely affect safety. It is possible to do this, but it's not automatically the case. The fire service are the backstop for the worst non conforming premises and will not carry out your FRA nor highlight anything other than the most severe issues so it's rare for them to go into that much detail on a door.
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1. Consult a qualified fire risk assessor or https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-risk-assessment-sleeping-accommodation. It's not as simple as number of exits but also includes travel distances, separation from the bar below, type & extent of fire alarm system, etc 2. It's risk based. The expectation is for intumescent seals and cold smoke brushes particularly in sleeping risk, but the overall risk and fire safety package has to be taken into account. You can't just say they were OK at the time, but need to show why they still remain OK (as technical progress has shown they have a sub-par performance). I've assessed premises where I've mitigated the retention of old pre-1980's spec fire doors, but others where I've had to advise replacement - this is the point of the FRA process.
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Freeholder of Georgian conversion property
AnthonyB replied to LK5457's topic in Fire Risk Assessments
Based on the fact it was not originally flats and was converted before the modern era of Building Regulations this is appropriate: https://www.cieh.org/media/1244/guidance-on-fire-safety-provisions-for-certain-types-of-existing-housing.pdf Section 37, p46 covers your situation. If you need help with your FRA please let me know. -
Not for Building Regulations purposes - but it can be for fire safety legislation purposes as the statutory bar was removed by the current legislation. The fire risk assessment should determine whether existing legacy precautions or remain adequate. So it's not appropriate to blanketly require current standards nor is it OK to automatically assume that because something was OK xx years ago it is now.
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Fire doors/Storage on protected stairway
AnthonyB replied to FacilitiesNAE's topic in Fire Doors and Accessories
Leave unlocked and fit an EN 1154 such as https://www.safelincs.co.uk/geze-2000-overhead-door-closer/ -
From HM Government "Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Small and medium places of assembly" which covers Churches. "If temporary seating is provided, these should be secured in lengths of not fewer than four seats (and not more than 12). Each length should be fixed to the floor"
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Delay between call point activation and full alarm activation
AnthonyB replied to Aps48's topic in Fire Prevention
What category of automatic detection is there & is the building sprinklered? 19.2.2 (c) of BS5839-1 does give scope for call points to only sound an initial staff alarm: "Any proposal to use a staff alarm as the initial response to a signal from a manual call point should be subject to special consideration. In such special circumstances, there should be adequate arrangements to ensure that a person operating a manual call point is not left in doubt as to the success of the operation (e.g. by means of visual indication at the call point that the signal has been correctly received at the control equipment and a suitable warning that operation of the manual call point will not result in an immediate audible fire warning). NOTE 1 It is common practice for both manual call points and automatic detectors in large places of public entertainment to initiate only a staff alarm, so that staff can be prepared to assist in an orderly evacuation, which is then initiated by a voice alarm message. Such arrangements necessitate a high level of training and awareness on the part of staff, and might not be appropriate in other premises" London Underground is one example of silent manual call points in public areas. -
Fire stopping within electrical intake cupboard
AnthonyB replied to Afro_Zen's topic in Passive Fire Protection
Not a location needing stopping - probably used whatever foam they had to hand for insulation/damp/acoustic sealing -
They are certainly frowned upon in the Government Fire Safety Guides: "Electromechanical devices Electromechanical devices comprise electromechanical lock keeps and draw bolts, which can be controlled by people inside the premises by entering a code or by using ‘smart cards’, which have been adapted to control the exit from certain areas. These devices have been fitted in many premises and may be linked to the fire-detection and/or warning system. Experience has shown that these devices can fail to open in a number of ways. They are dependent on a spring mechanism to return the lock keep or draw bolt(s) and are liable to jam when pressure is applied to the door. It is also relatively easy to fit them incorrectly. Electromechanical locking devices are normally unacceptable on escape doors, unless they are fitted with a manual means of overriding the locking mechanism, such as a push bar, push pad or lever handle or they do not rely on a spring mechanism, fail-safe open and are not affected by pressure, in which case the criteria for electromagnetic devices should be applied."
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1 - No, it sounds like the exit width is provided via the full door and, as is common, the half leaf is for where extra width is temporarily needed, e.g. moving large items/furniture, hence why it's bolted. If the full leaf and a half was required for escape width as sometimes is the case then the half door would/should have no bolts and a self closer. 2- I'll let the forum's fire door specialist address this next time he logs on
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American La France was owned by ASCOA after acquisition from Sterling Precision Instruments and before sale to Figgie"
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From my fellow experts from across the pond: "American La France 2-3/4 lb. Dry chemical. I have a later version. Not super common with this name plate. Maybe $20-25 to the right person."
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Not really unless the premises have temporary mitigation measures in place. The room sounders are there because the corridor sounders will not rouse a fair percentage of people in bedrooms - studies showed people asleep in unfamiliar locations actually need higher sound pressures hence the change in standards over 40 years ago to have sounders in bedrooms.
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If you ask US based extinguisher preservationists you will get a value for this. It's in good condition and has a particular branding different to the more common ones for this model (sold under various different brands) so whilst not worth serious money could fetch a few dollars or more to the right person. If you use Facebook this group is full of expert knowledge from several counties (including the US) and will give you far more info: Antique Fire Extinguisher Collectors/Current Extinguisher users
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No, the main reason water mist and stuff like Firexo get bad press from the trade is that it reduces the numbers they sell and have to maintain. These emerging new technologies have gone through the required EN3 fire tests and can provide single extinguisher type solutions for a wide range of premises and work types.
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They must be on the side where people are escaping from, so when moving in the direction of escape you will have a green breakglass. BS7273-4 covers this.
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An EICR is a legal requirement in all rented dwellings not just licensed HMO's. I strongly urge you contact your local council Environmental Health (primary enforcers for houses & HMOs) as you are in a rogue landlord property - The Housing Act covers all properties, licensed or not and should meet the requirements of the Housing Health & Safety Rating System. You may be able to take legal action as the attempts to evict could be classed as aa 'revenge' eviction for you complaining - seek advice from Shelter & the Citizens Advice Bureau
