AnthonyB
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Posts posted by AnthonyB
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On 25/02/2023 at 13:07, Guest Richard Wright said:
Hi
I have an interlinked set of four HSA/BP/RF10-PRO ten year battery smoke alarms plus one heat alarm purchased in July 2022.
I took them all down last week as we had two false alarms and couldn’t turn them off.
I have now put them all back up and each one gives one red flash when reconnected, except one which beeps on reconnection and then gives a fast double beep every ten seconds. I have had to leave this one disconnected.
How do I stop this happening?
Thanks
Sounds like a fault - the silence button will stop it for 10 hours but you are advised to return it to the place of purchase for a refund or exchange
https://files.ekmcdn.com/8f4554/resources/other/hssa.pe.rf10-pro-instructions.pdf -
Because of the internal lobby you'd expect fire doors unless they got a relaxation because of the ground floor alternative exits and first floor escape windows - if the doors are original to the conversion they must have been acceptable to building control.
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In a container that small there is no legal obligation for any unless the layout creates an inner room that isn't mitigated by a vision panel or under height partition, in which case you would need smoke detection as heat detection would not operate quickly enough and the inner room occupiers would be trapped before activation.
Domestic smoke alarms are not meant to be used in non domestic premises and a fire alarm system should meet BS5839-1 with manual call points first, then any detection as required, however in small premises that wouldn't normally need a fire alarm a risk assessment can often justify the use of Grade D smoke & heat alarms (can't be battery only)
http://www.cherwellfiresafety.co.uk/images/innerrooms.jpg
You need a fire risk assessment in any case that should address this. -
When was the conversion carried out?
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Only if the structural fire compartmentation between the two is inadequate and it's not viable to upgrade it. Usually the requirement is 60 minutes fire resistance.
(This assumes the flat has separate access not via the shop) -
On 18/02/2023 at 21:19, LookingForCommonSense said:
Around 75% of fire doors fail the FDIS inspections.
A new BMTrada Q mark certification door set installation has been quoted as costing £2600 plus VAT.
There are around 30 fatalities per annum in flats/ maisonettes where fire is the primary cause (Are there any statistics as to how many of these were due to fire doors being below standard?)
There are around 3 million flats.
Assuming 75% of those flats failed FDIS inspections and were fitted with new fire doors the cost would be around £7 billion.
The UK Health and Safety Executive states the cost to society of a fatal injury as being £1.8M. On that basis an investment of 7 billion would need to save over 3500 lives to be justified.
The numbers don't seem to add up. How is this explained in the context of a risk assessment?
Because most of those who have jumped on the fire door survey bandwagon have done simple pass/fail courses and aren't actually risk assessing. Many doors can, fully in accordance with guidance, be repaired or upgraded - whilst some will require replacement not all will!
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Lots of problems there! There should legally be a Fire Risk Assessment for the block (which has to include the external fabric of the building as well the internal flat walls and doors that bound the common areas as well as the actual common parts) that if any good should pick up on these things.
Do you have a communal fire alarm system that includes sounders and detectors in each flat hallway? This would be the minimum expected for a block of this type of build.I think you may be well advised to contact the fire safety enforcement department of your local fire service.
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Not generally - not all evacuations are for fire. It's poor design of the premises, you shouldn't have an escape that also requires securing from exit (as oppose to entry) .
Risk Assessment can, in certain situations, remove it, such as in places of detention, but it's the default expectation in guidance and Building Regs that you have the override. -
Most traditional layout dwellings don't require fire escapes as the stair is your escape and you are trusted to shut your doors at night. In recent decades bedrooms have had escape by a requirement for escape windows giving a clear unobstructed opening area of 0.33 m² and a minimum width or height of 450mm.
This requirement, being part of Building Regulations, is not retrospective for single dwellings unless relevant alterations subject to Building Regulations occur (such as having new windows fitted - most pre 1990 build houses now have escape windows as they have had original wooden or metal single glazed windows replaced by uPVC double glazing since 1990)
As a G2 listing the windows may not have been replaced or subject to limitations on replacement. A mitigation may have been a more comprehensive smoke/heat alarm system - do you have the legal minimum detector to each landing or to the kitchen and lounge as well? -
Yes - it's correct and should have been this way for decades. A lot of housing is improperly provided for as only having been subject to proper fire safety regulation in recent years.
If your local authority had operated additional licensing for s257 HMO's (i.e. houses converted to flats outside of modern building regulations requirements) and you were two thirds rental occupiers you would have had the right precautions as you would have needed a license, but as most conversions fall outside this scheme (no additional licensing or mostly owner occupied) they slip under the radar.
Here is the source of their action points: http://www.cieh.org/library/Knowledge/Housing/National_fire_safety_guidance_08.pdf -
Ignore the above - here is the official rationale:
A fire detection and fire alarm system only provides satisfactory protection of life if it is capable of rousing the principal occupants of the dwellings from sleep (e.g. the
adult occupants in typical single-family dwellings). No particular sound pressure level is certain to rouse all occupants in all circumstances. Depth of sleep varies during the
course of the sleep period and also varies from one person to another. Greater sound pressure levels are often required to rouse children from sleep than are necessary in the case of adults. Hearing loss, which can occur gradually with ageing, and alcohol intoxication also result in the need for higher sound pressure levels to rouse people from sleep. BS 5839-1 recommends that, if an audible alarm is intended to rouse sleeping persons, a sound level of 75 dB(A) ought to be achieved at the bedhead when all doors are shut, although this will not guarantee that every person will be awakened, particularly if they are under the influence of alcohol or drugs.Most fire detection and fire alarm systems in dwellings comprise smoke alarms, which are usually fitted in, at least, the circulation areas, such as hallways and landings. BS EN 14604 requires that the sound output of a smoke alarm be at least 85 dB(A) at three metres. Most domestic doors attenuate sound by around 20 dB; greater attenuation can occur in the case of solid doors, such as fire doors. It is therefore unlikely that a smoke alarm on, for example, the upstairs landing of a two-storey house will produce a sound level of 75 dB(A) at the bedhead in each bedroom, particularly if the bedroom doors are shut; levels of 55 dB(A) to 65 dB(A) are more likely. There appears to be no evidence to show that lives are being lost due to inadequate audibility of the fire alarm signal from smoke alarms, except where people are incapacitated to such a degree that even much higher sound levels would not waken them. This might be because, in their own homes, people can be roused by an unusual sound of relatively low level compared with the sound level that may be required to wake them in premises with which they are unfamiliar (e.g. a hotel).
The historic adequacy of sound pressure levels applies to sheltered housing as well as general needs housing. However, the changing demographic of sheltered housing
residents means that the ageing population now found in sheltered housing is likely to be more prone to hearing loss than the general population. Accordingly, when a new fire detection and fire alarm system is installed in sheltered housing (either when the building is first constructed or when a replacement system is installed in existing sheltered housing), it is now considered appropriate for higher sound pressure levels to be provided in the principal bedroom of each dwelling unit than those traditionally achieved. -
Single stair single escape blocks of flats don't automatically require fire exit signage as it's obvious where you are going. The Government guidance cautions against institutionalising residential accommodation where of no benefit and specifically details exit signage as one example. The emergency lighting is fair enough.
There are lots of managing agents and their advisors that don't have a clue when it comes to resi fire safety. I was at a site for a residents right to manage companis' directors after their agent was trying to get them to fork out over £9k on a fire alarm and it was quite clear that whilst some minor works were required there was no need for an alarm system or a switch to full evacuation.(It was a small block of 3 storeys too)
18 months is odd - it's usually annual where the agent doesn't want the liability of doing the reviews themselves, otherwise 2 or 3 years isn't uncommon where the agent does interim reviews.
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Self closing doors don't always have catches, a well adjusted closer can sometimes hold the door enough not to warrant one. The forums fire door expert should hopefully give you a detailed answer next time they log on
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Yours is a very common scenario, it's odd the guidance skips the fact in many temporary event layout venues fixing isn't possible.
Some local authority guidance accepts that the floor seating cannot always be fixed as per national guidance, but insists they are at least tied in lengths, e.g.
https://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/frsholdingevents -
There always was to some extent, it's only in recent years it's been an area looked at to any degree. As there has to be a fire risk assessment for the premises this should detail the level of protection required - it could be a simple upgrade of the existing cupboard, new separation, protective enclosure over the meters, or even accepting the current set up (e.g. if all the electrical boards are in non combustible housings as per the most recent revisions of electrical installation regs)
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Technical standards can be retrospective for fire safety legislation purposes as the statutory bar was removed by the current legislation. The fire risk assessment should determine whether existing legacy precautions or remain adequate.
So it's not appropriate to blanketly require current standards nor is it OK to automatically assume that because something was OK xx years ago it is now.
A competent person would need to demonstrate why the existing standard of installation that isn't to current (or even the past for some time) specifications does not adversely affect safety. It is possible to do this, but it's not automatically the case.
The fire service are the backstop for the worst non conforming premises and will not carry out your FRA nor highlight anything other than the most severe issues so it's rare for them to go into that much detail on a door. -
1. Consult a qualified fire risk assessor or https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-risk-assessment-sleeping-accommodation. It's not as simple as number of exits but also includes travel distances, separation from the bar below, type & extent of fire alarm system, etc
2. It's risk based. The expectation is for intumescent seals and cold smoke brushes particularly in sleeping risk, but the overall risk and fire safety package has to be taken into account. You can't just say they were OK at the time, but need to show why they still remain OK (as technical progress has shown they have a sub-par performance). I've assessed premises where I've mitigated the retention of old pre-1980's spec fire doors, but others where I've had to advise replacement - this is the point of the FRA process.
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Based on the fact it was not originally flats and was converted before the modern era of Building Regulations this is appropriate:
Section 37, p46 covers your situation.
If you need help with your FRA please let me know.
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On 05/02/2023 at 14:54, Guest kevin said:
Internal fire door requirements retrospective?
Not for Building Regulations purposes - but it can be for fire safety legislation purposes as the statutory bar was removed by the current legislation. The fire risk assessment should determine whether existing legacy precautions or remain adequate.
So it's not appropriate to blanketly require current standards nor is it OK to automatically assume that because something was OK xx years ago it is now.
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Leave unlocked and fit an EN 1154 such as https://www.safelincs.co.uk/geze-2000-overhead-door-closer/
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From HM Government "Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Small and medium places of assembly" which covers Churches.
"If temporary seating is provided, these should be secured in lengths of not fewer than four seats (and not more than 12). Each length should be fixed to the floor"
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What category of automatic detection is there & is the building sprinklered?
19.2.2 (c) of BS5839-1 does give scope for call points to only sound an initial staff alarm:
"Any proposal to use a staff alarm as the initial response to a signal from a manual call point should be subject to special consideration. In such special circumstances, there should be adequate arrangements to ensure that a person operating a manual call point is not left in doubt as to the success of the operation (e.g. by means of visual indication at the call point that the signal has been correctly received at the control equipment and a suitable warning that operation of the manual call point will not
result in an immediate audible fire warning).NOTE 1 It is common practice for both manual call points and automatic detectors in large places of public entertainment to initiate only a staff alarm, so that staff can be prepared to assist in an orderly evacuation, which is then initiated by a voice alarm message. Such arrangements necessitate a high level of training and awareness on the part of staff, and might not be appropriate in other premises"
London Underground is one example of silent manual call points in public areas.
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Not a location needing stopping - probably used whatever foam they had to hand for insulation/damp/acoustic sealing
Sub-division of corridors
in Fire Prevention
Posted
30m is the absolute for legacy buildings accepted as a minimum based on contemporary guidance in the Government risk assessment guides, post 1991 builds should work off 12m.
60 persons max through an inward opening door