Neil Ashdown MAFDI Posted January 5, 2019 Report Share Posted January 5, 2019 Hi Sam, There are various options. Google 'Fire Door Training' and search for details. And if you'd like to discuss please feel free to contact me direct via www.firedoorscomplete.com Regards, Neil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Neil Wilson Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Hi, I own a building company and we have been employed to refurbish an assisted living building. In this building there are numerous door openings that require fire door set installations. In addition to this we have a machine shop so in our machine shop we have the capability to assemble fire door sets. There seems to be a grey area surrounding what we can and cant do regarding the assembly and installation of fire door sets. Im aware that in order to alter the size of a certified fire door product or cut apertures you need to have certification through BWF or BM Trada etc for processing fire doors, as we don't have certification we do not attempt to do this and we send them to another joinery company locally who have the certification. So for all of the communal doors we have picked the products (door, casing and ironmongery) and had these approved by the designers, we have submitted the certifires to them and agreed to install all products to the manufacturers fitting guidelines, provide installation pictures and submit our evidence. We only have level 3 qualified joiners working on either assembly or installation so are these classed as competent as they are actually trained to assemble and install these through their qualification. The client has asked if the doors will be certified, so my question is if the doors have not been altered and have certification, fitted into a fire rated casing with certification and fitted with ironmongery conforming to the test results of the certificates with relevant BS No's for the doors and these have been installed to manufacturers instructions Ie fixed, packed, foamed, sealed etc pics taken are these doors certified or do they need to be assessed by a third party if our company or the site manager is not CertFDI? Or given that we have followed the guidelines very strictly and can demonstrate that we have taken all necessary steps to assemble and install to the certifire guidelines if we submit a schedule of installations and the supporting information in my O&M folder for the F10 will this suffice? Im hearing all different things from people regarding who can do what and some saying that we cant assemble doors and casings without certification to do so, which seams crazy to me. So any advice would be welcome Thanks Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Ashdown MAFDI Posted January 12, 2019 Report Share Posted January 12, 2019 Hi Neil, You are correct there are some misleading statements doing the rounds. The first thing to say is that there's no legal requirement for fabricators at the joiners shop to have a dedicated fire door qualification and the same goes for installers. However, clearly better results are likely to be achieved where those operatives do have adequate training. The problem with fire doors is that its easy to fall foul of the requirements and finish up with a non-compliant fire door. Many certificated fire doors have strict trim allowances and so are only suitable to be used in their standard sizes, so fire rated door blanks may be a better option where openings are non-standard. Although of course where new fire door frames are to be installed it may be possible to add to the door frame thickness to suit standard size door leaves. The bottom line is that the fabrication and assembly works must be compliant with the fire performance test report for that particular fire door leaf, and requirements may vary from fire door leaf to fire door leaf. The correct and compatible hardware must be fitted and the installation works must again be in accordance with the requirements of the fire test report. Most door leaf manufacturers provide installation instructions, data sheets and technical manuals but the quality of detail within those documents does vary. Start by selecting a fire door leaf that not only is suitable in terms of fire rating but also in terms of durability and resistance to heavy use. Then obtain the technical manual/product data sheet for that fire door leaf. Follow the information therein being careful to observe the requirements in terms of fabrication, selection of compatible door frame, seals and ironmongery as well installation. Be careful to use the correct product for fire stopping between the door frame and the surrounding wall, some fire foams do not have test evidence for timber based fire doors. Also, be careful where air transfer grilles are required as these products do not offer cold smoke protection. You should provide a copy of the technical manual/data sheet for the door leaf and all other components that make up the fire door assembly for the client O&M manual. Furthermore in support of the fabrication/assembly/installation works it would be good practice to provide photographic evidence that the work has been done in accordance with the product data and installation requirements. Also, be careful to make sure you adhere to the requirements for cold smoke protection. The most important thing is that fire doors are fabricated, assembled and installed compliant to the evidence of fire performance so if you can demonstrate that's been done then your client should be happy. Ultimately, though your client may have there own requirements such as inspection and sign-off by an inspector or that products and installation works is third party certificated. In my experience, though, third party certification of some products and installation works is no guarantee of quality. Please don't be put off, go for it and provide a quality service for your client. We need more competent and diligent fire door contractors. Useful and important resources: Product technical manual/data sheet for the fire door leaf and all other components of the fire door assembly. BS 8214:2018 Timber Based Fire Doors, Code of Practice. Code of Practice: Hardware for Fire & Escape Doors. Information sheets about intumescent fire/smoke seals https://www.ifsa.org.uk/documents/ Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted January 12, 2019 Report Share Posted January 12, 2019 I fully agree with Neil but here is a few links that may help. https://www.firedoorscomplete.com/ https://www.nptcgroup.ac.uk/courses/installation-fire-resisting-timber-doors/ https://www.asdma.com/knowledge-centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Karen Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 Hi Neil I seem to have asked everywhere I can. The council said I should contact he fire brigade who advised I Google companies that can Certificate my door but no joy. I'm a council leaseholder and have been told my flat door needs to be fire safe by June or I'm in breach of my leasehold. A friend had made my flat door safe by fitting the strips and closer etc. Can someone please advise where/who I need to contact to Certificate the door? With thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Ashdown MAFDI Posted May 4, 2019 Report Share Posted May 4, 2019 Hi Karen, "Certificate the door" is the wrong phraseology and demonstrates a lack of understanding about fire doors. Certification relates to fire doors and component products where the manufacturer is a member of a third party certification scheme. My advice is to have the fire door inspected by a Certificated Fire Door Inspector, after inspecting the door they will issue an inspection report. The report will either list the fire door as compliant or if there are any compliance issues the report will include details of the remedial work required. https://fdis.co.uk/find-an-inspector/ The council should accept the inspector's report as evidence of compliance, assuming of course that the fire door is indeed compliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ant Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 Why cant I find any jobs anywhere for a certification fire door inspector? Just all installers. And how much of a pay grade difference is there between the two? The course is nearly 3k so surely must pay well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyB Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Are you just a fire door inspector or are you qualified/experienced in any other field? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Posted July 11, 2019 Report Share Posted July 11, 2019 I am a glazier. I fit pvc/timber doors all day. Call out last night to a concerned for welfare incident which presented me with a very unwell domesic external fire door. If I source and fit a replacement door leaf only, from the same manufacturer, using the reference number found on the door, and as its a like for like replacement do I need to be accredited? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted July 13, 2019 Report Share Posted July 13, 2019 You don't have to be accredited to install, maintain or repair fire doors. But you do need to be competent. The main issue is that there is little in the way of standardization when in comes to installing the different makes/models/types of fire doors. Different makes and models of fire door may well have different requirements for intumescent seal sizes, hinge positions and lock case sizes for example. All fire doors should have technical data sheets or installation instructions and these must be followed in their entirety. If not then, the performance certification is void and the fire performance may be jeopardized. So if you are installing a new fire door leaf into an existing frame, you may for example find that the required hinge positions are incompatible with the existing frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Allen Posted July 15, 2019 Report Share Posted July 15, 2019 Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted September 17, 2019 Report Share Posted September 17, 2019 do you need building control approval for the replacement of a flat front door if the door is a certified fire door and installed by a competent carpenter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted September 18, 2019 Report Share Posted September 18, 2019 You may, you should speak to your local Building Control they could consider it a material alteration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vision panels in existing Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 Hi Can you advise me. I have two fire doors in s Church building which because of health and safety checks require a vision pane, in each. I can get a carpenter to do it and he will source the fireproof glass and necessary glazing beads for it. He is Certified to fit fire doors but not the vision panels Is it okay for him to do this? If it is done correctly would we be breaking any regulations? Thanks Mr Arthur Cox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted October 19, 2019 Report Share Posted October 19, 2019 There would be no regulation broken providing he is a competent person, which means he/she is a person where he/she has sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other qualities to enable him/her properly carry out the required work. However any documentation guaranteeing the fire door, to meet the required standards (certification) could be annulled if not done by a person approved by the certification company. Check out ASDMA Best Practice Guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Stevens Posted October 26, 2019 Report Share Posted October 26, 2019 Can somebody point me in the direction of a company where I can get the correct cert to install fire doors. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 Try searching the internet for 'Fire Door Training'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 Check out Neil's website https://www.firedoorscomplete.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bryan Posted November 21, 2019 Report Share Posted November 21, 2019 Hi there. I work for a large housing association as a door/window fitter I'm a qualified fenestration surveyor. + fensa.with 25 years experience .iv been instructed to fit fire doors and frames to 350 flats but the doors have been surveyed by a plumber with no experience of doors or fitting .I'm not comfortable with this.can you tell me wot the law is please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted November 23, 2019 Report Share Posted November 23, 2019 The Responsible Person defined in The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 is required to conduct a fire risk assessment and this document will instruct you which doors are required to be fire doors. If you need to know which doors need to be upgraded or repaired, you need the services of a fire door inspector check out Fire Door Inspection service or similar organisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted November 24, 2019 Report Share Posted November 24, 2019 (edited) Where replacement fire doors to flat entrances or in communal areas is necessary, the survey work is an important job. It should be done by somebody that understands what types and sizes of fire doors are available and how they should be installed. Just for example: Do you replace the door leaf and frame, or just the door leaf? How much can be trimmed from the edge of the door leaf for installation? What is the best type of door leaf construction for the job? What type of lock should be fitted? What are the best types of smoke seals for the particular job? What type of threshold plate and seal should be used? Can a door-viewer or letter-plate be fitted? The better the survey, the better the end result. Edited November 24, 2019 by Neil ashdown Typing error corrected Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dan Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 How long is the fire door installer and inspector certificate valid for? Is it for life or it needs refreshing on a regular basis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) Depends on the certification body or training provider. If you are looking at third party certification and/or training for installation and/or inspection of fire doors, undertake sufficient research before you part with your money. Satisfy yourself that you are getting the best and most comprehensive that is available. Edited January 29, 2020 by Neil ashdown To add more information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graham B Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 Is there a database of certified installers that the public can access so as to ensure that their new fire door is fitted correctly? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safelincs Posted January 29, 2020 Report Share Posted January 29, 2020 Hi Graham Just for information. Safelincs offers nationwide fire door install by certified installers. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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