AnthonyB
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Posts posted by AnthonyB
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If you don't know the answer to these questions then you should NOT be messing around with fire alarm systems.
You can of course run a conventional radial zone of call points & detectors on an addressable system by having the usual end of line resistor at one end of the radial and the other linked to a Zone Monitor on the addressable loop. Of course you won't get an individual address for the devices, only the monitor will have an address and text e.g. "Zone 3-2nd floor", but it allows for gradual upgrades of existing systems - it's not unknown for a building to have a nice shiny addressable panel, but the loop only has conventional zones from the old system on and no addressable devices. I've even seen an old 3-wire 240V system linked to an addressable system.
If you are having to junction box cables remember it's a critical signal path so must be fire resisting and don't mess up the connecting, many a bodge has reversed polarity, caused earth faults, short or open circuits and generally affected the efficacy of the system.
For technical advice the www.firealarmengineers.com/forum is invaluable, but anyone unqualified and trying to bodge will rightly get a frosty reply!
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If it's a self contained bulkhead they are so cheap for complete new fittings why bother fiddling around, just replace the lot.
If it's a more expensive conversion kit there may be some saving, but if you aren't competent then you are risking breaking the law, bodging it up so they don't work (or even start a fire). It's not changing a bulb.
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Yes, they have an impact on the safety of relevant persons in the common areas and elsewhere in the premises.
Even a basic Type 1 Fire Risk Assessment should do this (extract from the Government Guidance):
"Type 1 – Common parts only (non-destructive) A Type 1 fire risk assessment is the basic fire risk assessment required for the purpose of satisfying the FSO. The inspection of the building is non-destructive. But, as well as considering the arrangements for means of escape and so forth, the fire risk assessment includes examination of at least a sample of flat entrance doors."
Read more at: https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/fire-safety-purpose-built-04b.pdf
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In scenario 1 you have an exit which should be panic proof, but is not as the mag lock installation isn't BS7273-4 compliant. There is a resulting crush hazard risk (moreso if a place of assembly) and remedial action is required.
Scenario 2 requires no action as inward opening doors are usually tolerable where less than 60 persons use the door.
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Generally yes, you do have ignition sources, combustibles and relevant persons in these buildings:
Fire-fighting and fire detection
13.—(1) Where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—
(a)the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and
(b)any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1) what is appropriate is to be determined having regard to the dimensions and use of the premises, the equipment contained on the premises, the physical and chemical properties of the substances likely to be present and the maximum number of persons who may be present at any one time.
(3) The responsible person must, where necessary—
(a)take measures for fire-fighting in the premises, adapted to the nature of the activities carried on there and the size of the undertaking and of the premises concerned;
(b)nominate competent persons to implement those measures and ensure that the number of such persons, their training and the equipment available to them are adequate, taking into account the size of, and the specific hazards involved in, the premises concerned; and
(c)arrange any necessary contacts with external emergency services, particularly as regards fire-fighting, rescue work, first-aid and emergency medical care.
(4) A person is to be regarded as competent for the purposes of paragraph (3)(b) where he has sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other qualities to enable him properly to implement the measures referred to in that paragraph.
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Exit boxes are usually either "Maintained" which are permanently lit by the mains feed and by the internal batteries upon power failure; or "Non Maintained" which are not normally lit by the mains feed and only illuminate via the internal batteries upon power failure.
Maintained fittings are usually required in places of assembly (pubs, clubs,cinemas,conference and exhibition areas,halls, etc) as these can sometimes have low light levels under normal operating conditions - Non maintained fittings are usually OK everywhere else as under normal conditions there is suitable artificial (or natural) lighting to illuminate the sign.
It's not uncommon for random mixes of types in a building. Your unlit signs could be non maintained,or maintained with a blown bulb!
The enclosures are usually marked on the side or base with their type (either in full or abbreviated NM or M as part of the luminaire type code)
Your fire risk assessment should determine the requirements across your estate.
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Or just use Water Mist extinguishers throughout to simplify things, 6 litre units are 13A rated just like foam, but can also be used on electrical fires and cooking oil fires: https://www.safelincs.co.uk/ultrafire-water-mist-fire-extinguishers/
As a licensed premises you require a written fire risk assessment carried out by a competent person regardless of the number of persons employed, you can use a (preferably third party certified) external provider,or do it yourself following this guide:
The Fire Risk Assessment will determine what you need regarding fire alarms, extinguishers,etc.
If your pub includes sleeping accommodation then it's a high priority for audit by the fire service's enforcement teams so you need to make sure everything is right.
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You will require planning permission, plans and Building Control approval. You should appoint a competent person to assist with this. Building Regulations are here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441669/BR_PDF_AD_B2_2013.pdf
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Depends on the size and layout of the premises. Small 1 or 2 room lock up shop/small office type premises can have torches (ideally those you plug in and automatically light up when the power fails, they aren't too expensive and will still cover you if there is a local lighting circuit failure as whilst they are plugged into the ring circuit the units invariably are also night lights so will light up due to the darkness).
Anything bigger and you may have to consider 'proper' emergency lighting.
Saying staff should walk around with a torch all day is plainly daft. Most phones have torches or can have free torch apps added anyway.
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Most of the big trade supplier's still refurbish CO2 extinguishers (the one I use does 500 a day) as there is a big enough cost saving to the trade to make it worth doing.
Some small independents also still have the kit.
Check Fire, PJ Fire and Jewel Saffire all still offer UK wide filling, testing and exchanging, saves around £6-8 a unit on a 2kg and a far more substantial sum on the 5kg.
All these also give a deposit value (credit and for some cash too) which if you don't need an exchange CO2 can be used against any of their other products.
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If retrofitting the preference is usually to fit to the frame rather than taking material out of the door.
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Also it wouldn't protect against ignition of nightwear, there are smoker's aprons for this risk.
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No objection under either or both stairs as long as you create a fire resistant cupboard of at least equal fire resistance to that of the stair (30 minutes in most cases,can be more though), that the stair (unless concrete or similar) is underdrawn to the same FR and that it has an FD30S door either self closing or kept locked shut (& signed as such). Depending on the required category of automatic detection for the premises you may need a smoke detector included too (off the buildings fire alarm system, not a self contained domestic unit)
There is a limit on including a reception in a stairwell - you need to have at least 2 stairs and only one can have the reception,the other has to be fire sterile.
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The panel you refer to is a hybrid conventional/addressable that is in essence a 2 wire conventional that can have it's devices addressed for identification but is still using conventional yes/no detection devices rather than addressable devices that are polled and report analogue values to the panel and has limited cause and effect beyond a verification setting for HMO use (like the rafiki/fike Checkpoint Plus), so you are looking at heat detectors (I'd suspect the Opto-heats still have a risk of triggering. You can isolate devices and zones, but this has to be done via the panel (unlike addressable systems where a key switch can be programmed to do this)
Fully addressable systems are often used where stage effects and smoke are present with a 'performance mode' C&E (often controlled by a key switch) that puts the auditorium multi-sensors into heat only mode during the event and then the system is switched back to normal (smoke or smoke/heat) for the rest of the time. The odd individual rouge fire officer aside this is usually accepted as the auditorium has more than enough people (including staff) to detect a fire promptly during performances. Similar setups can be used in clubs.
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Fire exit doors of any nature generally don't start to require outward opening until 60 or more people need to use them.
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I'm not going to answer as you need further training and experience. Which FPA course did you do? There is a specific one for residential FRAs as the standard commercial premises ones don't cover this type of premises.
All credit to you for doing recognised training, but sadly too many people think fire safety is a 'zero to hero' type job where you do a short course (or less!) and hey presto you can start doing FRAs for money in all sorts of premises- some of these assessors have ended up in jail by thinking like this as a result.
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As Tom says - BS9999 is not a risk assessment guide but an architect/designers alternative to approved document B and the occupancy calculations only work if the premises meet all the other aspects of the document, such as management level, structural protection, fire fighting facilities, etc, etc.
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It's quite clear in the Government Guidance:
"While fire drills and practice evacuations are used in many buildings to reinforce fire awareness training, it is neither practical nor necessary to carry them out in purpose built blocks of flats. Even in blocks with communal fire alarm systems, this is unrealistic.
In large sheltered housing schemes incorporating extensive communal amenities, such as hairdressers, cafeterias and shops, fire drills may be necessary. However, these will still only apply to people present in the common parts. Residents within their flats would not be expected to take part in fire drills"
They are unnecessarily intrusive and disruptive to people who are, at the end of the day, in their own private dwelling, not an institute and on the whole are either ignored or result in damage to fire alarm sounders to silence the racket.
Being private dwellings there is no responsibility on occupiers to log whether they are in or out and so it's impossible to know when to end the drill and timings as you can't be sure if everyone is out or not, most flat blocks are unstaffed with no one to coordinate evacuation . Also most blocks are stay put so no one should leave anyway (not that there should be sounders in the first place.)
It affords no benefit and is a waste of time and money. I've only ever tried it once and after leaving the alarm sounding for half an hour there was still no one leaving even though there were many flats occupied. The only result was two sounders smashed off the wall and several more bunged up with toilet roll.
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typo - Goods lifT
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Recent Guidance Act? Do you mean BS5266-1:2016? Do you mean upgrading escape route provision from the old 0.2 lux to 1 lux, which has been around for quite a few years now.
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Ignore the extinguisher company, they just want to sell extinguishers. I remove hundreds of unnecessary extinguishers from stairway annually - the stairs contain no risk, but the floors do for which you have sufficient.
If you have Water Mist there is no point in having the CO2 either. If your electrical cupboard has a Water Mist within 10m you don't need an additional extinguisher, also a 5kg CO2 would be overkill for a typical small office distribution room, either 2kg CO2 or for consistency you could stick a Water Mist outside.
The whole point of Water Mist is it's safe for direct use on electrical fires up to 1000V so you don't have to have additional CO2 extinguishers.
BS5306-8 is not law, it's just guidance and it's the fire risk assessment that makes the decision on requirements based on risk not prescriptive standards.
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It's not perfect but yes - is there any other way to empty the bins? If there is no goods life then it leaves the stairs.
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I assume it's yet another purpose built block with call points and sounders that weren't actually needed, the fire officer is correct and will be referring back to the current standards in Building Regulations and the Fire Safety guidance for Purpose Built flats.
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Sounds like it would make the stairs dangerous in any use, so the Health & Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and the The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 would have relevant application in addition to consideration of any fire safety breaches.
Can a fire exit be used as daily entry point?
in Fire Exits
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There needs to be a legal easement, deed of variation or similar allowing them access and any necessary conditions (e.g. emergency use only). You would usually find it in the premises legal pack along with the freehold/leasehold agreement.
If there is no written agreement you are entitled to secure your premises, but you should consult a specialist in property law as if they've enjoyed use of the route without being told they can't for a long historical period they can try and get the access formalised in court (Or so I've read in case law,but it's not my speciality). You could also grant them a formal easement in return for a reasonable admin fee,rent, etc.