AnthonyB
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Posts posted by AnthonyB
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This is a double post ,being asked in another section. I refer you to my answer there.
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Check the fire risk assessment. Is this an exit at ground level to open air? Depending upon the location and distribution of the exits and any stairs and if the premises are stay put then there is a slight possibility the exit is for accommodation only and not required for escape - but I would want to see how they came to this decision.
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If it's an internal fire exit from one internal area to another there is a good chance it's meant to be a fire door as well in which case it needs repairing/replacing and a new closer fitting.
The final fire exit to open air doesn't usually need a closer as it's not a fire door unless protecting an adjacent external escape route.
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The fact it's got it's own smoke control system suggests it is a non standard (not to Approved Document B) layout mitigated by a fire engineering approach.
Layouts that are more open plan than the default approach of enclosed stairs and lobbies are not uncommon, usually using sprinklers and/or smoke control.
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If correctly fitted and maintained they do have a reasonable amount of performance - they were intended to last up to 30 minutes even back in the day. Intumescent seals and cold smoke brushes are one of the main differences affecting performance, but in the right circumstances they remain acceptable (they aren't automatically and in many cases need upgrading or replacing).
There's no evidence of there being any changes to require full retrospective application of standards, it would be too burdensome. Let's not forget that the fire doors that failed at Grenfell weren't the original notional doors, but the 'today' door sets that supposedly had all these regulations and codes to ensure their efficacy.
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If there is no valid written agreement to have right of access they can do this with notice even if that messes up your fire safety compliance - this is why a well written deed of variation or easement is required as anything less can lead to your situation. If you can't prove title to the path and they can you are stuck.
You need to consult a property lawyer - I have read of cases like this where if the (albeit informal) enjoyment of the access has been had for a prolonged amount of time the courts have enforced formalisation of the access right.
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Yes, whilst the shop should carry out it's own FRA, which should include the risk to relevant persons in the vicinity of the shop (i.e. flats above), that doesn't mean you shouldn't include the existence of the shop in the flat FRA. It's clearly a 3 storey building of ground and two upper floors, for which you are assessing the upper flat floors common areas.
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Not uncommon and it doesn't exempt from provision if the system is required. If the conversion was to building regs it might not need detection.
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Local crews aren't often trained in fire safety beyond the basics, specialist departments in the FB do this.
If it is a stay put block you don't need to know about a common area fire as the worst thing you can do is leave your home as several people have paid for with their lives. As these areas generally contain minimal combustibles you are safer in your 60 minute 'box' as it will eventually burn out or be extinguished.
If it's a stay put block you don't need to know about a fire in another flat as that will be contained within it's own 60 minute box and whilst there may be some smoke leakage into the corridor that only means it's safer still to stay where you are.
If it's full evacuate you need a proper fire alarm system with detection linked to a central control panel which covers the common areas and (as a minimum) the flat internal lobbies, with call points in the common areas and alarm sounders in the common areas and (as a minimum) the flat internal lobbies as the flats are not 60 minute boxes and you need to know about the fire before it breaks out into the common areas and to adjoining flats.
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Depends on whether everyone would be stuck or there's an alternative, if being stuck or passing down the alternative would be a risk from the fire, if the alternative can take the number of people without bottle-necking or being too slow, if being stuck is a crush hazard as the area is too small etc.
Many factors will influence if this is a trivial or major issue. The competent person responsible for the school's fire risk assessment should be consulted.
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No, smoke alarms in the common space have no value other than to confuse residents as to the evacuation strategy and potentially cause them to leave the safety of their flats into a danger area (which has had fatal consequences). We generally have them removed.
Detection (without alarm) is only required where needed to operate an automatic smoke control system.
They are also inadequate where a full evacuation policy is needed.
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I suggest you read the guidance here https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/fire-safety-purpose-built-04b.pdf
This will allow you to assess what improvements may be needed and also that smoke alarms in the hallways are not required and of no real value
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Walker Fire? They love sticking yellow warning stickers on blankets, even when they've just supplied them new (They are also often used without just cause and I have a clipboard covered in ones I've peeled off again!).
Unlike extinguishers there is no British Standard guidance for the provision of blankets so it's a combination of risk assessment, tradition and 'another sale' that seems to dictate provision.
Blankets are useful for small contained fires in many items, such as:
- Chip & frying pans (no greater than 300mm diameter/3 litres of oil in line with the maximum test fire they are used on)
- Small metal non mesh waste bins
- Small parts solvent dip trays
They used to be suggested back in the day for TV's back in the cathode ray tube days (before flat screens) where they could be draped over the top vents.
Most installed blankets are only just over 1m x 1m (& people on fire training courses are surprised when they see how small they are) so if you need them for their other use, clothing fires, you may need a bigger blanket (they are made up to 1.8m x 1.8m).
In your situation you don't really need them if there is a suitable extinguisher nearby, if they are all condemned just bin them and do without them.
Beware of the fakes of which hundreds are sold each year (especially on Amazon & eBay) that are like tissue paper blankets, if it doesn't have a kitemark symbol and genuine KM number (checkable on BSIs website) I wouldn't trust it.
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Depends on the fire separation, if it was all correctly underdrawn during the conversion to compartment the basement from the rest of the building to a suitable level of fire resistance then you may not need to link it. If you do, then if there is at least a notional fire resistance you could avoid the false alarm risk by installing heats off the common system in the basement to provide the warning to the flats about and leaving the pt 6 smokes down there self contained for the life safety of that flat only.
If it's no FR of any reliable sort then the first thing to try is to upgrade it, as a last resort (due to false alarm risk) you may need smokes linked to the common system (on the basis heats would be too slow if there is no FR)
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Sounds similar to a scenario on an FRA based course I did at the Fire Service College a few weeks ago where the conclusion was the situation was not tenable and required structural alterations to provide protected routes removing the need to pass through the kitchen.
Building Control may well not have been anywhere near the job, a lot of stuff gets done under the radar - it's also sadly likely that they have and OK'd it (some horrific stuff gets passed as there is little sanction against the certifier).
It doesn't really matter who went before and said it was OK - if it doesn't look right and you don't feel comfortable do not accept it as unlike BC your neck will be on the line if something goes wrong. It might not be what the client wants to hear, but sadly that's life. Try and come up with some suggestions to make it better.
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Is the kitchen area separated from the stair and exit by fire resisting construction?
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They can be adjusted, they should generally shut the door within 10 seconds in any case.
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They are controlled waste and can only legally be removed by a licensed waste contractor, or if taking them yourselves, to a licensed waste transfer station.
Fire extinguisher maintenance contractors can often dispose of them, but you should see that they have a Waste Carriers License (in any case but particularly if you are paying them!) otherwise you are committing an offence - not all are. You should get a waste transfer note from them.
Most local authority waste stations can take them, but as these are primarily for domestic rate payers most will reject any that appear to be of commercial origin.
https://www.fireprotectionrecycling.co.uk/ are one of the main disposal companies in the UK and in addition to collecting directly also have skips at several trade suppliers sites across the UK.
Where are you? I'm licensed to dispose of extinguishers as well.
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Same as any extinguisher for domestic premises:
- If you want the cheapest option then there is ABC Powder. However it's very messy and damaging and isn't the nicest stuff to breath in or see what you are doing when discharging. Will also cover any risk in the home involving solids, liquids and electrical equipment, but not cooking oils
- The most expensive option is Water Mist. It's clean and undamaging and suits the three main domestic risks: fires in solids, fires in electrical equipment, fires in cooking oils.
CO2 gas extinguishers aren't really suited to domestic use, neither are the normal water jet and water spray extinguishers.
Foam spray is a possibility, but most suppliers won't ratify their use directly on electrical fires other than accidentally (long story!)
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A lot of fire protection suppliers stock Jonesco products that include this product for smaller extinguishers:
http://www.jonesco-plastics.com/en/jfex03-fire.html
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The front door needs to be a fire door for the protection of the common space & other flats.
As a conversion the appropriate fire safety benchmark is likely to be in here:
https://www.rla.org.uk/docs/LACORSFSguideApril62009.PDF
This requires current standard FD30S doorsets.
Upgrading products for existing doors that have test accreditation do exist and are a fraction of the cost, however you would need to be sure that the freeholder would accept this.
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You are correct that a shared house currently has less stringent requirements that a HMO (licensed or otherwise, but note the definition changes in October).
This guide applies: https://www.rla.org.uk/docs/LACORSFSguideApril62009.PDF
You appear to have the stairs going into a lounge as part of escape, this could cause issues (or should!).
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No they aren't. Building Regulations still differentiates between situations where FD30S & FD30 doors are required and until the doorset has it's seals fitted there is the possibility of fitting either just intumescent strips or strips and cold smoke brushes.
A traditional interpretation has been that FD30 doors are for property protection (preventing the spread of heat and flame but not hazardous fire effluent) FD30S doors are for life safety as well as providing property protection.
Some fire door inspectors will not risk assess and will condemn anything other than a certified FD30S, others will, in accordance with current government guidance and recommended risk assessment methodology be more proportionate - whilst FD30S should still be an aspirational goal in all cases there are circumstances where upgraded or notional doors remain tolerable in the interim (look at the Determination on fire doors by the Secretary of State,whilst it only applies to that one building it shows the thought process behind the proportionate approach).
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It's very unusual to need emergency lighting in the actual bedrooms you will not find it required in any of the guidance or standard for emergency lighting or the approved documents to the Building Regulations. You would normally only require it on escape routes.
I'd challenge Building Control as you don't see hotel bedrooms in new builds with emergency lighting!
Plug in Combined nightlight/torches that illuminate on mains failure and either motion detection/darkness (switchable) are widely available and would be more sensible.
If necessary leave them there, get signed off, then the Fire Safety Order takes over from Building Regulations, do an FRA, determine they aren't needed, take them out and if appropriate put the plug in torches in place - would be a quicker way around it!
Hallway Fire Doors
in Landlords
Posted
If you are in the common hallway and it's on fire (which it shouldn't be short of an aggressive arson attack using a lot of accelerant) you would evacuate, but if the block meets structural requirements it should be safe to stay put in your flat if needed.