Hi,

I am looking for guidance on the type of packer that can be used behind frame fixings for FD30 doors.

I read that plastic packers can be used on FD30's. just not FD60's - is that correct ?

Can plastic packers be used ?, if an appropriate 10mm intumiscent mastic bead is run round the gap between frame and supporting construction, assuming gaps on average between are 5-10mm, packers chiselled back where necessary to allow the depth of a 10mm mastic bead, an architrave placed on top.

I do not yet own a copy of "BS 8214:2016 Timber based fire door assemblies Code of practice", but will place an order shortly (seems curious a hard copy version is no more cost than a PDF).
Will this document contain the information I require regarding packers /.

I have read several other documents, ie: ASDMA 'Best Practice Guide' and 'Guidance on Fire Door Installation', BWF 'Fire Door and door sets, Best Practice Installation', and the relevant Certifire certificate documents for the doors.
The only reference I can find in any of these documents for packers is 'Proprietory trouser leg packers are best', and 'Timber Packers should be applied behind fixings' (Do not use plastic packers.)' - from a practicle point of view you are not going to find a 1mm timber packer.

I have spoken to the manufacturer of the Fire Door lining (Arbor Forest Products Limited) we are to use, but they report the Linings are not tested with any gaps in the surrounding construction.

I understand a product called Blue 60 is for 60 minute FD's but it is not Certifire Certificated, which I understand it needs to be for the mix and match specification of FD components under the Certifire certification process.

Thanks



 

Hi Bob

There are specific 60 minute intumescent plastic packers for fire door gaps available.

Harry

Hi Bob,

The gap between the door frame and surrounding wall construction would typically be between 5mm and 20mm.  BS 8214 is a very useful document in ensuring compliance of this work. Timber packers / folding wedges are preferable to plastic packers but plastic may be used so long as they are cut back by at least 10mm on both sides of the frame and covered over with a bead of intumescent mastic at least 10mm thick.

Fire foams tested to BS 476 part 22 or EN1634-1 may be used but only within the scope of the fire test evidence, this may mean using dedicated packers as part of the tested fire sealing system.

The image below illustrates the door frame to wall gap tightly packed with mineral wool but note that a 10mm bead of intumescent mastic is required to BOTH SIDES!

Hope this helps, Neil.

Thank you both for your replies.

Out of interest I have done my own tests on Fire Foam and plastic packers, its an unscientfic work, but I will post up images of the results shortly for what its worth.

For now I will stop using B2 Fire Foam for use in linear gaps, and use mineral wool instead.

Architrave
Architrave is fitted to the door frame surround, but my reading of the door certificate and test report, and other documentation seems not to give definitive credance to the protection provided by the architrave, almost suggesting that the test results should be viewed as if Architrave is not fitted, yet other writings suggest a 19mm thick architrave does provide some protection.
Could I draw from this that, as archtrave comes in many differing styles (Ovolo, ogee, Torus etc etc) the thickness of these at the point of nailing (and gap covering) is often less than 19mm, usually nailed with thin panel pins, and a softwood, so its not always viewed as offering reliable protection ... and hence the need for mastic in any gaps behind.

Building Control
How much should you rely on Building Control to advise on fire protection in a buildings fabric, if you seek approval from them for a specific solution to a problem (ie pentrations through a 60 minuite ceiling, and glass in a 60 minute wall), and they approve your proposal, and it is installed correctly, can you be confident they will advise correctly, or should you seek more specialised advice. I am using a large national private Building Control company.

Fire Protection Details.
Is it normal for an architect to advise on Fire matters with Fire Protection Details on BC plans, or should one look to Building Control to advise, do Building Control look over plans prior to works and over rule/make additional direction on Fire matters to that of the architect.
 

Thank you Bob, glad to be of use.  I will do my best to take your questions one by one..............

Architrave
Architrave is fitted to the door frame surround, but my reading of the door certificate and test report, and other documentation seems not to give definitive credance to the protection provided by the architrave, almost suggesting that the test results should be viewed as if Architrave is not fitted, yet other writings suggest a 19mm thick architrave does provide some protection.
Could I draw from this that, as archtrave comes in many differing styles (Ovolo, ogee, Torus etc etc) the thickness of these at the point of nailing (and gap covering) is often less than 19mm, usually nailed with thin panel pins, and a softwood, so its not always viewed as offering reliable protection ... and hence the need for mastic in any gaps behind.
A:  Fire doors are fire resistance tested without architraves fitted. Generally, for the reasons you state, the architrave should not be relied upon as a contributor to fire performance. Clearly, though, where architraves are securely fitted as described in BS 8214 they would likely enhance the fire resistance performance of the door. 
 

Building Control
How much should you rely on Building Control to advise on fire protection in a buildings fabric, if you seek approval from them for a specific solution to a problem (ie pentrations through a 60 minuite ceiling, and glass in a 60 minute wall), and they approve your proposal, and it is installed correctly, can you be confident they will advise correctly, or should you seek more specialised advice. I am using a large national private Building Control company.

A: The Building Control officer may not be a specialist in passive fire safety, their job is to see that the works meet the requirements of the Building Regulations. With that in mind, I am of the opinion that it is better and safer to consult a specialist to advise on a particular fire resistance issue. 
 

Fire Protection Details.
Is it normal for an architect to advise on Fire matters with Fire Protection Details on BC plans, or should one look to Building Control to advise, do Building Control look over plans prior to works and over rule/make additional direction on Fire matters to that of the architect.

A: Sorry, I can't answer that one as it's beyond the level of my experience in Building Control matters.

 

 

Considering how many newsworthy fires in defective buildings, newsworthy critical defects uncovered and the general experience of the fire safety sector I wouldn't rely on an AI or BCO for fire safety advice - too much stuff gets signed off only later to be revealed to be substandard and need reworking at great expense.

On 16/04/2020 at 07:33, Neil ashdown said:

Hi Bob,

The gap between the door frame and surrounding wall construction would typically be between 5mm and 20mm.  BS 8214 is a very useful document in ensuring compliance of this work. Timber packers / folding wedges are preferable to plastic packers but plastic may be used so long as they are cut back by at least 10mm on both sides of the frame and covered over with a bead of intumescent mastic at least 10mm thick.

Fire foams tested to BS 476 part 22 or EN1634-1 may be used but only within the scope of the fire test evidence, this may mean using dedicated packers as part of the tested fire sealing system.

The image below illustrates the door frame to wall gap tightly packed with mineral wool but note that a 10mm bead of intumescent mastic is required to BOTH SIDES!

Hope this helps, Neil.

Very interesting comment Neil regarding cutting back packers 10mm. Is there anywhere I could find literature to support this? Regards & thanks in advance.

Hi Paul,

Fire Door Inspection Scheme Transition Module.

Should I come across this elsewhere, I will post here.

 

Hi it’s different question to what has been asked but fitting of fed or communal fd60/30 can pvc architraves be fitted. Obviously Olof sufficient packers and fire mastic have been used. It would be very helpful to know. Thanks in advance 

There is no reference to the use of PVC architraves in the BS 8214: 2016 Timber-based fire door assemblies - code of practice.

So with reference to Flat Entrance Doors (often composite construction) I would consult the door manufacturer.

Doors in communal areas are likely to be timber-based doors, therefore I would use timber-based architraves.

Can fire doors be made with transparent glass instead of traditional opaque materials to increase visibility and aesthetics, or would this compromise the fire-resistant properties of the door?

Yes - but they aren't cheap!

 

https://doortechnik.co.uk/glass-doors?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAj9m7BhD1ARIsANsIIvClxv0V6qE2tcX_ewZ4w8khG-ZApH82FZTsuvJnm7ZMEZFcHMBGGfkaAj1OEALw_wcB

There are timber fire doors that can have large clear glazed panels. These are a common solution where a larger amount of borrowed light is necessary. 

eg.