bob2813

Thank you. Just re-read some of the FSO guidance, and thank you for the pointer on maintenance: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/article/17 If I understand correctly the 'interior' of the flats would not have the FSO apply as they are private dwellings, but any equipment that has ended up fitted inside the private dwelling would still require maintenance, and as you advise 'from a liability point of view' - if not required and not maintained should be removed ... which leads me to Fire Doors, every bedroom door is a fire door (as required if it had become an HMO), and has been maintained to date as such, even though these Fire Doors have not been required for a couple of years. The purpose of removal is to reduce disturbance to tenants whilst maintaining fire standards, but I presume it would be unnecessary to actually remove the Fire Doors themselves, just perhaps the closers ? leaving on the FD30 Handles and Hinges - even though no longer inspected would be acceptable ? I will be replacing the Fire Extinguishers inside each flat with P50 non maintenance units, once installed I understand these do not require maintenance.

@AnthonyB Thank you for the reply. I should have sought a second or even third opinion on this. I think in summary then this can be easily stated as, the change in Fire Cover will be from: 1) an Installation that satisfies my local councils HMO Licence conditions to 2) what my original Building Regs approval specified (as you state above). The original FRAssessors - implied that where Fire Equipment is installed - it must be serviced, if it is not serviced then it must be removed, even where the equipment itself is not required, no one has yet shown me a piece of legislation that states that.

I rent out two flats, a one bed and a three bed, all originally signed off and certified by Building Control. Additional FD30 Firedoors, Emergency lighting, smoke and heat detection (Grade D), Fire Extinguishers and Fire blanket were installed in each flat, Lacors was followed for the install, and FRA's performed by a competent company. This was in preparation for the property to be Licenced and run as 2x small HMOs. However - the flats were never licenced and have been let as single lets. As single lets - it has become quite disruptive to their quiet enjoyment, with a constant round of Testing and Certifying - with Engineers at regular intervals trudging though the flat. The FRA judged the Risk as 'Trivial'. As the properties are not in fact HMOs, all the extra Fire Equipment is not required. I would like to return the flat to how it would have been, if it had been a single let originally, this will involve removing the emergency Lighting, fire extinguishers, and door closers. I understand I cannot simply leave Fire Equipment installed if it does not get its periodic service/inspection. I have spoken to the FRA company about doing this - but they shy away from agreeing that this could be done - however - I feel on the balance - all the unnecessary Fire Safety equipmentis intrusive to the tenants lives. Each bedroom room will retain a smoke detector, which is over and above what is required, flat doors to communal areas will however remain as FD30 with inspecting interval at every 3 months, and with Fire blanket and heat detector in each kitchen Interested to know if others on here know of similar circumstances or have experience they can share.

@AnthonyB Thank you, that all makes sense now, I will go back to my Competent Person and ask him where he is getting his information from.

Was it ? umm, thats helpful to know, my Competent Person is saying I could do the test, so their is no financial incentive for him, and we have worked together for years and I trust him not to rip me off, although I am aware - wool and eyes - can happen. This thread states that BS5266: 1999 had it, but it was removed in 2005, not 2016, bit not that is matters, important point is that is was removed. It reads "Six monthly test of self contained and central battery systems by simulation of a failure of the normal lighting supply, for a continuous period of one hour. During the test check all luminaries for proper function." https://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/t85842-Emergency-Lighting---6-Monthly-Test Why was it removed ????

Thank you for that extract. My Lacors Guidance (which I believe is current), s32.8 references BS 5266-8: 2004 (BS EN 50172: 2004) Emergency Escape Lighting Systems, however I understand that is the guidance I should follow, unless an amendment is made and published for the Lacors Guidance to cover updated documents. So I see no 6 month 1 hour test mentioned. I am currently following the Lacors/BS5266 maintenance guidance, so can't see and of my procedures are missing anything. I will have to go back and ask my competent person where he is getting his information from. What he is suggesting makes sense - the extra test can't be a bad thing, but unless its guidance I should legally follow, then it shouldn't apply, and neither should I follow it, do I interpret the situation correctly.

Question is - before I challenge his competence, is he correct, I cannot find any reference online to such an update. I am not sure if HMOs are his main line of business, and in the past have had sightly conflicting information from him on very minor issues, which has had to be fact checked. As as an aside, should my engineer be expected to folllow the 'letter of the law', he's competent, but not a Barrister in the Law.

I have always followed Lacors (2013 I believe this is the last revision/amend). I have an HMO, with non maintained Emergency Lighting, mains supplied, with back up battery. It states: monthly periodic flick tests performed and Logged by the manager or fire contact, with annual periodic tests certified by a competent person. The competent person has contacted me to say he has an update to guidance that states: every six months a 1 hour test to be performed by manager/fire contact (in addition to above tests). I will ask him how he has been informed of this update, and should it superseed the Lacors Guidance. Thanks.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I have professional indemnity insurance, including Public Liability, Negligence and Civil Liability, so providing I have complied with the Law those perils should be covered., and a call just now to my insurer confirms this. I can't see Insurers requiring anything above what the Law requires. So my orginal question - does certification and maintenance still need to be carried out ? if not required by Law.

I have 2x flats with self contained non maintained Emergency Bulkheads. My electrician has provided Emergency Lighting Completion Certificates for both flats ('For Small New Installations'). The GF flat has 2 lights in the one corridor, which opens into a small lobby, then onto the street, the FF and Loft flat has 3 lights covering stairs and landings, again opening out into the common lobby. 2x very small installations. A separate Fire Risk Assessement has been carried out. When handed the certificate (a 2 page document), page 2 the 'Compliance Checklist' was left blank. At the time no 'system plans' were available, nor any photometric data. I have queried this blank page 2, and the lack of information missing with the Electrician,who has stated he has enough experience to judge the system as compliant as it is, no further form filling or information required. He stated 'I have the Certificate' In addition on Page 1 it states: This Certificate is only valid when accompanied by current: a) Signed declaration. b) Photometric design data. This can be in any of the following formats but in all cases appropriate de-rating factors must be used and identified to meet worst case requirements. - Authenticated spacing data such as ICEL 1001 registered tables. - Calculations as detailed in BS 5266-1:2016, Annex D, and CIBSE/SLL Guide LG12. - Appropriate computer print-out of results. c) Test log book. So a legal document, that to be 'Valid' requires certain information to be present, after speaking to other competent installers it seems common practice to not provide Photometric Data ... where the install is deemed minor, and despite the Cert having the words 'small new installations' in the title. If the day ever came and a court required to see the Cert, what would I as RP reply when the court questioned the lack of Photometric Data, and a blank Page 2. Any thoughts appreciated.

Thank you. Yes I have read that Part of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Order), but my reading of it is that maintenance is only required where the equipment is provided for by Law, my FRA assessment has written that it is not required, and the assessor considers the borrowed light to be sufficient. If I put an Emergency Bulkhead in my bedroom for fun (or infact in an understairs cupboard - to illuminate the Consumer Unit,in case of a power outage as I have done), or in an Escape route at my behest - (ie not required to be fitted by any Law) - then Section 17 cannot apply ?? If by Law it is not required, then the only sort of commissioning certification that would be required would be covered under BS7671 certificates. In my mind it just doesn't seem clear that Fire Regulation Laws apply to these particular lights, yes they maybe covered by other Laws, ie Electrical Installation ... but that certification is covered.

Thank you for the reply. when needed The FRA has written that it is not needed, ie no requirement. I'd agree it isn't required (although doesn't do any harm) If there was no Emergency Lighting, the FRA has assessed that in the event of a Fire everyone can get out of the building Safely, having it installed is simply extra to requirements, so the lack of it would not be an infringment of those requirements. Can any one point me to where its states - that even if not required by law, where emergency lighting has been installed, over and above what is legally required, it still needs to be certified (commissioning and periodic certificates). Thank you for clarifying the differences between the Certificates.

Hi, What is the position for the RP, where a qualified FRA states their is no requirement for Em. Lighting (conventional/borrowed light adequate), but the RP has still gone ahead and fitted them. Lacors also states no requirement. 2x 3 bed HMOs less than 2 storeys each. Does the RP still need a competent person to provide commissioning certificates, and then ongoing annual test certificates (a periodic inspection and test cert. has though been provided). The Em. lights have been tested under BS7671 certificates. What are the differences between a Emergency Lighting Completion Certificate and a Periodic Inspection and Test Certificate. Thanks

Wedging of Fire Doors Can someone kindly point me to the actual legislation wording that defines this as Illegal in an *** please. (note this is not a licenced ***, but one that falls under The Houses In Multiple Occupation Regulations 2015) Someone has suggested it is in 14 and 15 of the RRO, but I cannot see it there. Thanks

Thanks for the reply. I would only use the principals and devise my own system I would be interested to know what you would replace the PPE with for a FRA for a rental property, FFE ?? for example.