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bob2813

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Everything posted by bob2813

  1. @AnthonyB Thank you, that all makes sense now, I will go back to my Competent Person and ask him where he is getting his information from.
  2. Was it ? umm, thats helpful to know, my Competent Person is saying I could do the test, so their is no financial incentive for him, and we have worked together for years and I trust him not to rip me off, although I am aware - wool and eyes - can happen. This thread states that BS5266: 1999 had it, but it was removed in 2005, not 2016, bit not that is matters, important point is that is was removed. It reads "Six monthly test of self contained and central battery systems by simulation of a failure of the normal lighting supply, for a continuous period of one hour. During the test check all luminaries for proper function." https://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/t85842-Emergency-Lighting---6-Monthly-Test Why was it removed ????
  3. Thank you for that extract. My Lacors Guidance (which I believe is current), s32.8 references BS 5266-8: 2004 (BS EN 50172: 2004) Emergency Escape Lighting Systems, however I understand that is the guidance I should follow, unless an amendment is made and published for the Lacors Guidance to cover updated documents. So I see no 6 month 1 hour test mentioned. I am currently following the Lacors/BS5266 maintenance guidance, so can't see and of my procedures are missing anything. I will have to go back and ask my competent person where he is getting his information from. What he is suggesting makes sense - the extra test can't be a bad thing, but unless its guidance I should legally follow, then it shouldn't apply, and neither should I follow it, do I interpret the situation correctly.
  4. Question is - before I challenge his competence, is he correct, I cannot find any reference online to such an update. I am not sure if HMOs are his main line of business, and in the past have had sightly conflicting information from him on very minor issues, which has had to be fact checked. As as an aside, should my engineer be expected to folllow the 'letter of the law', he's competent, but not a Barrister in the Law.
  5. I have always followed Lacors (2013 I believe this is the last revision/amend). I have an HMO, with non maintained Emergency Lighting, mains supplied, with back up battery. It states: monthly periodic flick tests performed and Logged by the manager or fire contact, with annual periodic tests certified by a competent person. The competent person has contacted me to say he has an update to guidance that states: every six months a 1 hour test to be performed by manager/fire contact (in addition to above tests). I will ask him how he has been informed of this update, and should it superseed the Lacors Guidance. Thanks.
  6. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I have professional indemnity insurance, including Public Liability, Negligence and Civil Liability, so providing I have complied with the Law those perils should be covered., and a call just now to my insurer confirms this. I can't see Insurers requiring anything above what the Law requires. So my orginal question - does certification and maintenance still need to be carried out ? if not required by Law.
  7. I have 2x flats with self contained non maintained Emergency Bulkheads. My electrician has provided Emergency Lighting Completion Certificates for both flats ('For Small New Installations'). The GF flat has 2 lights in the one corridor, which opens into a small lobby, then onto the street, the FF and Loft flat has 3 lights covering stairs and landings, again opening out into the common lobby. 2x very small installations. A separate Fire Risk Assessement has been carried out. When handed the certificate (a 2 page document), page 2 the 'Compliance Checklist' was left blank. At the time no 'system plans' were available, nor any photometric data. I have queried this blank page 2, and the lack of information missing with the Electrician,who has stated he has enough experience to judge the system as compliant as it is, no further form filling or information required. He stated 'I have the Certificate' In addition on Page 1 it states: This Certificate is only valid when accompanied by current: a) Signed declaration. b) Photometric design data. This can be in any of the following formats but in all cases appropriate de-rating factors must be used and identified to meet worst case requirements. - Authenticated spacing data such as ICEL 1001 registered tables. - Calculations as detailed in BS 5266-1:2016, Annex D, and CIBSE/SLL Guide LG12. - Appropriate computer print-out of results. c) Test log book. So a legal document, that to be 'Valid' requires certain information to be present, after speaking to other competent installers it seems common practice to not provide Photometric Data ... where the install is deemed minor, and despite the Cert having the words 'small new installations' in the title. If the day ever came and a court required to see the Cert, what would I as RP reply when the court questioned the lack of Photometric Data, and a blank Page 2. Any thoughts appreciated.
  8. Thank you. Yes I have read that Part of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Order), but my reading of it is that maintenance is only required where the equipment is provided for by Law, my FRA assessment has written that it is not required, and the assessor considers the borrowed light to be sufficient. If I put an Emergency Bulkhead in my bedroom for fun (or infact in an understairs cupboard - to illuminate the Consumer Unit,in case of a power outage as I have done), or in an Escape route at my behest - (ie not required to be fitted by any Law) - then Section 17 cannot apply ?? If by Law it is not required, then the only sort of commissioning certification that would be required would be covered under BS7671 certificates. In my mind it just doesn't seem clear that Fire Regulation Laws apply to these particular lights, yes they maybe covered by other Laws, ie Electrical Installation ... but that certification is covered.
  9. Thank you for the reply. when needed The FRA has written that it is not needed, ie no requirement. I'd agree it isn't required (although doesn't do any harm) If there was no Emergency Lighting, the FRA has assessed that in the event of a Fire everyone can get out of the building Safely, having it installed is simply extra to requirements, so the lack of it would not be an infringment of those requirements. Can any one point me to where its states - that even if not required by law, where emergency lighting has been installed, over and above what is legally required, it still needs to be certified (commissioning and periodic certificates). Thank you for clarifying the differences between the Certificates.
  10. Hi, What is the position for the RP, where a qualified FRA states their is no requirement for Em. Lighting (conventional/borrowed light adequate), but the RP has still gone ahead and fitted them. Lacors also states no requirement. 2x 3 bed HMOs less than 2 storeys each. Does the RP still need a competent person to provide commissioning certificates, and then ongoing annual test certificates (a periodic inspection and test cert. has though been provided). The Em. lights have been tested under BS7671 certificates. What are the differences between a Emergency Lighting Completion Certificate and a Periodic Inspection and Test Certificate. Thanks
  11. Wedging of Fire Doors Can someone kindly point me to the actual legislation wording that defines this as Illegal in an *** please. (note this is not a licenced ***, but one that falls under The Houses In Multiple Occupation Regulations 2015) Someone has suggested it is in 14 and 15 of the RRO, but I cannot see it there. Thanks
  12. Thanks for the reply. I would only use the principals and devise my own system I would be interested to know what you would replace the PPE with for a FRA for a rental property, FFE ?? for example.
  13. Learning how risk assessments get produced, I see the Hierarchy of Control is a key element, this wikipedia article's diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_hazard_controls has PPE at the bottom of the diagram ... this is obviously aimed more at the work place, than a rental property such as an HMO. Is this diagram then relevant, could you swap out PPE and put in something more relevant for the type of premises being Assessed, would a hotels Assessment use such controls - what they swap out thr PPE for. Thanks.
  14. Thank you for your reply. I drew up a test record sheet, each device's test 'event' recorded, with any comments included. I vacuumed all the Smoke Detector heads. I gave the whole system a visual check. There have been no changes to the system since the last check. There have been no false alarms since last system check. (completed log book present and correct) I tested all the call points, Smoke Detectors were tested with a Smoke Saber (used as per instructions), the Rate of Rise heat detector in the kitchen was tested with a hair dryer (my qualified electrician has previously used the same - I researched the efficacy of this method, knowing such devices as the Solo Detectors tester is made for the job, but understand a hair dryer is acceptable to test the detector). The previous Test certificates has a number of sections (12-16), which I printed a copy of and checked the system, against the 67 questions its asks. I have observed the actions of my Electrician on several previous tests, and feel competent enough - the system test was no different to what he performed - but most importantly he feels me to be competent, and to work under his supervision, as he does with other aspects of his skills. I have worked under his instruction for a good few years. I have video evidence as a diary of the test, with completed test forms. I do not have any qualifications, would a court expect to see those ?
  15. I own a Licenced small HMO (3-6 persons), currently let to 4 persons. It has a Grade A LD2 alarm system, that is tested weekly, with 6 monthly test certificates attained from my NICEIC registered Electrician, holding the required experience and 5839 competencies, he also installed the system back in 2017. The system has had FRA's by an accredited company. As an aside - over the years my electrician has permitted me to perform 7671 1st fix tasks on a number of my own developments, that he has then subsequently completed the remaining work (CU and final connections) and then certified, judging me to be skilled enough to do the work to the required standard. During the last 6x Alarm System bi annual 6 month tests I have been onsite to witness and assist my electrician perform the test under his supervision. Due to Covid he was not able to attend the latest test (he is stuck abroad). It was however agreed between us that he felt on this occassion - I was experienced and skilled enough to run the test myself without him present, despite my understanding that the test needs to be completed by a suitably competent person, which it could be argued I am not (I am not registered or formaly trained by a suitable body) - my electricain though felt more than happy, and trusting of me to do this, and when complete would supply the test certificate, I would also test the Emergency Lighting which also required a certificate. I actually wanted him to witness it Live via Zoom, so there would be evidence of him witnessing the test. When I suggest that, he said there was absolutely no need as he trusted me completely to do the task. I then suggested that I would at least like him to witness a recording of it. I went off and understood a bit of a 5839 test, and that of the Lighting test. The test was performed and recorded, with this being sent digitally to my Electrician to review, along with a completed check list and my notes. Unfortunately - it appears that depsite several requests for him to review the evidence, he has not done so (ie not downloaded the files). Our relationship is professional, not that of friends, so feel reluctant to push him to download it, after all he is the competent one - and so has the last say - he trusts me and judges me to be skilled enough. He has now provided the test certificates, with his position noted as 'Qualified Supervisor'. Should I take it that he is satisfied, and my insisting on him reviewing the evidence is just being over pedantic.
  16. Thank you both for your replies. Out of interest I have done my own tests on Fire Foam and plastic packers, its an unscientfic work, but I will post up images of the results shortly for what its worth. For now I will stop using B2 Fire Foam for use in linear gaps, and use mineral wool instead. Architrave Architrave is fitted to the door frame surround, but my reading of the door certificate and test report, and other documentation seems not to give definitive credance to the protection provided by the architrave, almost suggesting that the test results should be viewed as if Architrave is not fitted, yet other writings suggest a 19mm thick architrave does provide some protection. Could I draw from this that, as archtrave comes in many differing styles (Ovolo, ogee, Torus etc etc) the thickness of these at the point of nailing (and gap covering) is often less than 19mm, usually nailed with thin panel pins, and a softwood, so its not always viewed as offering reliable protection ... and hence the need for mastic in any gaps behind. Building Control How much should you rely on Building Control to advise on fire protection in a buildings fabric, if you seek approval from them for a specific solution to a problem (ie pentrations through a 60 minuite ceiling, and glass in a 60 minute wall), and they approve your proposal, and it is installed correctly, can you be confident they will advise correctly, or should you seek more specialised advice. I am using a large national private Building Control company. Fire Protection Details. Is it normal for an architect to advise on Fire matters with Fire Protection Details on BC plans, or should one look to Building Control to advise, do Building Control look over plans prior to works and over rule/make additional direction on Fire matters to that of the architect.
  17. Hi, I am looking for guidance on the type of packer that can be used behind frame fixings for FD30 doors. I read that plastic packers can be used on FD30's. just not FD60's - is that correct ? Can plastic packers be used ?, if an appropriate 10mm intumiscent mastic bead is run round the gap between frame and supporting construction, assuming gaps on average between are 5-10mm, packers chiselled back where necessary to allow the depth of a 10mm mastic bead, an architrave placed on top. I do not yet own a copy of "BS 8214:2016 Timber based fire door assemblies Code of practice", but will place an order shortly (seems curious a hard copy version is no more cost than a PDF). Will this document contain the information I require regarding packers /. I have read several other documents, ie: ASDMA 'Best Practice Guide' and 'Guidance on Fire Door Installation', BWF 'Fire Door and door sets, Best Practice Installation', and the relevant Certifire certificate documents for the doors. The only reference I can find in any of these documents for packers is 'Proprietory trouser leg packers are best', and 'Timber Packers should be applied behind fixings' (Do not use plastic packers.)' - from a practicle point of view you are not going to find a 1mm timber packer. I have spoken to the manufacturer of the Fire Door lining (Arbor Forest Products Limited) we are to use, but they report the Linings are not tested with any gaps in the surrounding construction. I understand a product called Blue 60 is for 60 minute FD's but it is not Certifire Certificated, which I understand it needs to be for the mix and match specification of FD components under the Certifire certification process. Thanks
  18. Hi I run an HMO. I have had one of the nozzles removed from a water mist fire extinguisher on one of the landings, quite an important part. Is it possible to put the extinguisher in some sort of 'clear plastic bag' with a rip cord to open - and sealed with a cable tie to stop such theft. I have 3 of these and it appears quite easy to just unscrew them by hand, I have thought of removing the rubber o ring and tightening the nut with a spanner to stop opportunist 'hand removal'. Who would have thought ! Sure this must be an issue in schools - full of mischievous kids (me once being one of them :) how do they deal with this.
  19. 7x Fire doors have just been installed in an HMO. The property is a 1930's Laing semi detached with dividing walls made of either early aerated block or single leaf brick. The new FD30s fire doors - being far heavier than those removed - now make quite a thud when they close - in fact the walls of the house seem to resonate constantly to the sound of closing doors throughout the day. If closers are adjusted to a less agressive closing and gentle speed - then they do not latch. Just wondered if others had experienced the same.
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