-
Posts
2,690 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Everything posted by AnthonyB
-
Yes - whilst in smaller blocks the original notional doors can be accepted as tolerable in a Fire Risk Assessment that is only if they are still in original good working order. If they are defective and beyond reasonable repair then replacement is the only option at which point I'd upgrade to the current spec
-
Current installation standards are not retrospective and as long as the sounder circuits are FR it may be tolerable for an existing legacy system based on risk, detection present and as long as the panel is in 'short circuit = fire' mode and not 'short circuit = fault'. The deficiency from current standards should be noted, but as to whether is needs immediate replacement is a matter for the risk assessment
-
For which doors? There are limits on the use of indirect hold open devices depending on building use & layout and which doors are to be held detailed in BS7273-4 which whilst not law would be used as a benchmark in any legal action - use outside of this would need justification as to how it still afforded suitable safety
-
Advice required regarding Inner Rooms in School
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Safety in Schools
It's in the spirit of the guidance, although if the access room will still have a smoke detector in it then not quite necessary - you can have the vision panel (or no door) or access room detection or finish the partition 500mm below the ceiling. -
Ofsted are not the enforcing body for fire safety and their inspectors are not trained fire safety experts so they will not pick up fire safety issues unless so overwhelmingly bad a lay person would consider it a exceedingly risk often wouldn't realise there is a problem and refer it to a partner agency (fire service). As the premises must have a written Fire Risk Assessment this should look at required exits and the competent person who completed it be able to advise. The number and location of exits plus likely maximum occupancy of the hall are all factors and depending on these then it could be found to be acceptable or unacceptable, it's not possible to advise remotely although I would lean towards it being unacceptable unless a written suitable & sufficient FRA covering their use has taken all the factors into account and said it's OK, which there is a possibility it might as I would suspect they don't even have 100 people present.
-
If it's an existing older building there is unlikely to be any realistic solution and your competent fire risk assessor should take an holistic approach based on numbers and type of occupants, other provisions such as early detection & protection of escape routes allowing more time for people to filter through and exit, risks present, etc. Small numbers of people familiar with the premises can usually be accommodated in narrower exits, in the worst cases numbers can need to be fixed at 5 but you may well be OK, but it will limit numbers to some extent. Do a fire drill when the floor is full and see how long it takes to exit - if still in the 2.5-3 minute window you should be fine.
-
They certainly should be told what to do if an alarm sounds. With drills there are opposing schools of thought, both with their own pros and cons, that you either pre-warn everyone or pre-warn no one or only selected key personnel, it depends what the outcomes you want are - to test compliance and existing knowledge of what to do or to educate and inform by rehearsing it as a pre planned and notified event. Best practice is 6 monthly, the minimum is usually annual (but intervals are not prescribed anywhere unlike with older legislation) and for 24/7 premises, particularly where staffing to manage an evacuation will differ at night a night drill (or simulation with key staff if an actual full drill would be too disruptive) is also usually expected as well
-
No - there is no fixed expiry in law on an FRA and it only requires repeating upon changes to the premises, risks or relevant persons. However there is a need to regularly review the FRA to ensure it is indeed still relevant and any action points completed and this is usually approximately annual, but not prescribed as such. FRA providers usually put an expiry on their reports for liability purposes, but it is not legally binding - if your premises are safe and compliant they do not become unsafe & non compliant just because the FRA review isn't to the exact year since last looked at.
-
There is a lot of misinformation & upselling out there. July 2025 is indeed the 'end date' for 'old' AFFF containing C8 fluorosurfactants such as PFOA & similar. These stopped being sold well over 10-15 years ago and so many won't be still about as many extinguishers are binned at 5 years and if refilled should have been with other AFFF. Current AFFF contains C6 fluorosurfactants such as PFHxA which are still damaging to the environment (they have to be incinerated at end of life) but not yet outlawed. The EU has published it's legislation for phase out of these which if ratified this year as planned gives a 12 month phase out for new equipment & a 2030 hard stop for all remaining use. We are no longer in the EU so are lagging behind and are still consulting on phase out so it will be at least 2026 before any legislation drops and again an expected hard stop of 2030 or 2031 for that in use - no instant ban. You can currently lawfully buy & have a C6 AFFF extinguisher, but if being ethical (& if your environmental policy is anything more than ticking a box) you can when a new extinguisher is needed or an existing needs Extended Service use a Fluorine Free Foam extinguisher instead, or as many Foam extinguishers are used where they aren't needed you could also use Water, Water Mist, Class A Water Additive, Class ABF Water Additive or ABC Powder dependant on the risk.
-
Where are you - I have an Environment Agency license to dispose of these as well as having a historical collection of old extinguishers which this may be a welcome addition to!
-
Guidance is not retrospective, it's up to the fire risk assessment to determine if an upgrade is required due to a change in risk or where the protection under old standards has been proven unsuitable (unusual as injuries and deaths from school fires are virtually unheard of). If the school is in England then both the Government new build and existing school guidance (BB100 & DCLG Educational Guide) still accept a Manual System as minimum, with L4 if used out of hours and L2 (or higher) as compensatory measures (e.g. for CLAP/SCOLA build schools or where other guidance departures exist). BS5839-1 suggests M or M/P2 or M/P2/L4 or M/P2/L5
-
One for your risk assessor. Lots of considerations - how many people in the office, number and width of exits, travel distances, etc. Text book answer is no, but a risk assessed view might find it tolerable - is there not any way you can move the desks a bit to give more room?
-
You should ideally use an accredited installer to ensure that a certified doorset is correctly specified and installed (although admittedly it's no guarantee). Vents should be avoided unless the room includes plant requiring a minimum specification of ventilation (e.g. boilers) & there is no alternative such as external wall vents. If a fire door (e.g. FD30) they should be intumescent vents or if a firedoor also requiring smoke control (e.g. FD30s) then you would need the vent to be protected by an automatic fire and smoke damper linked to the fire alarm system, usually with detection either side.
-
Is Souda fire foam suitable for a head of wall fire retardant ?
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Prevention
It's not much use on it's own for many things. If you check the manufacturer's test certification you will find it's only good for small linear gaps of up to 15mm high x 85mm deep between walls and floors or similar gaps between a door frame & wall https://www.soudal.co.uk/sites/default/files/soudal_api/document/F0041630_0001.pdf https://www.soudal.co.uk/sites/default/files/soudal_api/document/F0041634_0001.pdf If used with a fire blanket and intumescent mastic capping it can be used for some penetration seals -
If it's over and above legally required life safety requirements and you are aware of any limitations of the system but are still happy for the additional cover then that shouldn't be a problem
-
Due to the small size of the premises you can follow the guidance at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-your-small-non-domestic-premises-safe-from-fire The fire alarm info is below - if you need a fire alarm for legal compliance it should be a BS5839-1 commercial system. If you don't other than for say an access room situation or non life safety property protection then Grade D or higher domestic equipment would be permitted. The Simplisafe website states their smoke detectors aren't interlinked so wouldn't sound throughout the premises nor have manual call points - for the same money you might as well have a proper wireless interlinked BS5839-6 system with call points such as the Aico brand sold here: https://www.safelincs.co.uk/smoke-alarms/ Means of giving warning in the event of a fire In single storey premises with open plan layouts and small numbers of people, the alarm may be raised by shouting “fire”. Alternatively, the alarm could be raised manually, using a hand-operated bell or siren. In premises of more than one storey, where the above method of giving warning would be unreliable, an electrical fire alarm system may be necessary. These systems should have ‘break glass’ call points and fire alarm sounders, connected to a control panel. In premises of more than one storey, where a fire might start and be undetected in its early stages, the fire alarm system may need to incorporate automatic fire detectors (these will generally be smoke detectors or, in the case of kitchens or other rooms in which smoke detectors would cause false alarms, heat detectors). In premises that do not have, and do not generally need, an electrical fire alarm system, but have inner rooms without adequate vision to the associated access room, interlinked, mains-powered domestic smoke alarms might be used to provide an early warning of a fire to people in an inner room.
-
Temporary detection as interim for compartmentation issues
AnthonyB replied to Sgt Bilko's topic in Fire Alarm Systems
Your proposal is the usual installation in these situations, however different buildings will require more. If there is a risk of spread from rooms to external structure or rooms to floor above that are greater than they should be in a correctly built block then the provision to all rooms may be appropriate. You know where the issues lay, you specify the cover required based on that. -
Fire door regs for 3-storey flat blocks under 11 metres
AnthonyB replied to Ian London's topic in Fire Doors and Accessories
Falling into the trap of reading legislation in isolation. Even before the Fire Safety (England) Regulations there was a legal requirement under Article 17 for ALL premises subject to the Fire Safety Order to have a suitable system of maintenance for fire safety measures (including fire doors) however it didn't set intervals leaving that down to guidance & risk assessment. Due to there being a general failure in those managing flats to comply with this the Government introduced prescriptive requirements for the intervals that must be followed for blocks over 11m, but did not remove the existing requirements for other blocks, where guidance suggests 6 monthly communal door checks and annual flat front door checks (but not to 'best endeavours' like larger blocks.) -
You shouldn't see a gap around smoke seals in a closed door, they are there to stop cold smoke passing in the time period before any fire eventually causes the intumescent seals the smoke brushes to swell & seal the door. If you are the Responsible Person for the common areas checking the front doors and ensuring they meet the required standard is your responsibility, but the leaseholders are responsible for the cost of any repair/replacement work
-
If it's more than two stories then all relevant guidance requires a Grade A or Part 1 communal system with flat self contained systems being Grade D LD3 minimum, ideally LD2. This is assuming it's a converted premises requiring a simultaneous evacuation policy. If it's stay put you don't need the common system
-
Separation between floors in service risers
AnthonyB replied to st1's topic in Fire Risk Assessments
What doors are on them now, what is in them and by fire stopped do you mean service penetrations are sealed or that each has a floor and ceiling rather than being an open shaft -
That would depend on the installation type. Where the lighting is part of a central testing system or is an addressable system powered and tested from a central source then there are technical elements that require external maintenance one or two times a year. If they are just a large quantity of self contained self testing units then as they carry out the monthly and annual tests in theory you don't need anymore than the monthly walkaround to check the visual indicators and for any damage with the wiring side checked in the 5 year EICR. The law only requires "A suitable system of maintenance". Keep a log of monthly checks and manufacturers data showing these are self testing and the system of maintenance doesn't require the traditional service visits and you are legal regardless of what a fire officer, used to standard fittings, wants. Of course of the manufacturer's data requires a service (such as with a central system) then that's what you have to do.
-
People often get their terminology mixed up. The Responsible Person is usually the employer - where none exists it is the person who has to any extent control over part of the premises - failing that then the owner is the Responsible Person (such as in a vacant building) If there is a Resident's Management Company set up by the freeholder flat owners (which is usually recommended for limitation of liability) then the Responsible Person is a "legal person" e.g. 'Acme Towers Management Co Ltd.'. If no corporate body exists and control is exerted by an individual then that 'natural person' is the Responsible Person e.g. 'Mr Joe Bloggs the landlord' Other people and companies can be appointed by the Responsible Person to assist them in their legal responsibilities, but the Responsible Person usually retains ultimate responsibility. A Property Management company can be appointed to run the premises, Competent Persons can be appointed to carry out FRAs, Fire Alarm Service, etc. In fact there can be a whole list of different 'persons with responsibilities' under the overarching Responsible Person and it does not have to be a single individual. In your case you are all individually Responsible Persons unless you set up a RMC when it would transfer to the corporate body. Converted Houses if split into flats are covered by the Fire Safety Order but also potentially s257 of the Housing Act (if two thirds of the flats are rented out) and usually require different fire precautions to purpose built flats. Where they come under s257 of the Housing Act they can require a license if the local authority introduces 'additional licensing' to part of their area that includes them.
-
If it's a concrete stair and the door is a fire door then it wouldn't affect the protection of the stair and should be OK.
