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Everything posted by AnthonyB
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Take the door and frame out, skip them, move the bed in, fit a new certified FD30S doorset (frame, door & ironmongery all compatible and installed to manufacturers specification & test certificate), job done. Whilst not to current building regulations if a new build or new conversion, as an existing door set official guidance for the fire regulations (separate legislation) will tolerate 'notional doors' and 'upgraded notional doors' in certain circumstances and whilst the Perko single chains are known to have been a poor choice for decades aren't specifically excluded if still shutting a door flush (only rising butt hinges are) so the door may have been acceptable for existing purposes - but it doesn't look in the best of conditions and if having to complete building work to get the bed in it's time to modernise!
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Existing Notional Fire Door Remedial Work or Replacement?
AnthonyB replied to nigelh's topic in Fire Doors and Accessories
Your block is not a new build - it is completely wrong and against both Government guidance (which if you follow is proof you are legally compliant with the legislation under Article 50) and the recognised fire risk assessment methodology PAS79 to try and apply Approved Document B, a guide for the design of new buildings not assessing existing ones, retrospectively. I know who they are and I know the standard of their work, feel free to take this offline - PM me or email me. -
Fire Resistance for different purpose groups
AnthonyB replied to Paul B's topic in Fire Risk Assessments
Not really, it's a single compartment building due to size, depending on void contents and the risk assessed fire alarm category you might need detection up their, but for life safety it's not proportionate -
I wouldn't expect AOV even on a new build with that layout as the stair is remote from the risk. Compliant at the time of the build hasn't been acceptable as an automatic get out for fire safety since 2006 (it's not the same as Building Regulations that retain the hard stop on backward application) and the risk assessment determines whether the existing precautions still provide an adequate level of safety (some are proven to be now ineffective), some part modernisation or mitigation is needed, or, full modernisation is required. A good example is the guidance around fire doors in blocks of flats - sometimes original notional doors can remain, sometimes they need modernising with intumescent seals & smoke brushes and in some cases whole door sets need replacement with certified new ones. Based on the risk as presented (but with the caveat I've not been there and only have your description) I don't see a need for retrospective smoke control either!
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PAS9980 addresses this (particularly the new version in draft if published as it stands) with very small buildings like this being low risk, but if in doubt ask a competent FRAEW assessor as to their thoughts, although a full FRAEW is unlikely to be required
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BS7273-4 allows a variation in manual release operation type and location for places like places of detention, care homes & similar where risk to certain residents can arise if they are able to leave the premises without supervision. The doors should usually be linked to the fire alarm as well although again in certain places this may not be the case due to a possible risk from general release of all doors
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So none of the flats actually open into the stairs? If not no reason at all for smoke control.
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Existing Notional Fire Door Remedial Work or Replacement?
AnthonyB replied to nigelh's topic in Fire Doors and Accessories
If the assessor is a member of a professional body or a registration scheme (which they should and there is little excuse for not being) there is the potential of reporting the issue to them. If you feel you are being required to implement work that is not required you should take the matter to a First Tier Tribunal (Property). I've helped a client win against a council and their two different, but equally incorrect/OTT, risk assessments against unnecessary work - it can be done! -
Heat detectors, by their very nature, rarely false alarm due to the fact they are unaffected by steam, aerosols, dust, insects, etc. It will be running on battery until flat and is most likely to be defective - you should replace it with a new one - you can take it down whilst still noisy and until you can get a new mains detector installed it's advisable to put up a cheap battery only detector to keep you covered. https://www.safelincs.co.uk/smoke-alarms/
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Subject to travel distances this sounds reasonable - with a layout based on Figures 1 or 4 the total travel distance should not exceed 25m - it is also assumed the escape doesn't pass the kitchen
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No, it was most common in London presumably due to their own local building regulations, but isn't an explicit requirement in current Building Regulations guidance.
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Sounds like your friend has failed to meet the first legal requirement - that of a fire risk assessment, which would answer your question. See here for advice on the law https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-your-small-non-domestic-premises-safe-from-fire Domestic detection isn't usually permitted in commercial premises or for where commercial & domestic premises need to evacuate together, if there is a 60 minute fire resistant ceiling between shop & flat there may be no need to have linked alarms.
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Alternative escape route is traditionally an external steel stair - no shortcuts like throw out ladders, etc. You would be advised to consult a fire engineer as increasingly building inspectors will require deviation from the ADB recommendations to be contained in a strategy by a chartered fire engineer with fire safety design insurance.
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That's up to the risk assessor - there are lots of factors at play before deciding whether to remediate or change evacuation policy (& thus install the required alarm systems for this). If the doors are the original fire doors and it's a small block they can be tolerated and worked with, riser cupboards can be firestopped, it's not always severe enough to require a full U-turn in the approach. Without seeing the block and the issues I can't be definitive - I have had small blocks that have been able to remain as stay put whilst new doors are fitted, others where a full evacuate system and alarms has been required.
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According to Health Technical Memorandum 05-02: Firecode Guidance in support of functional provisions (Fire safety in the design of healthcare premises): Door closers Generally all fire doors should be fitted with an automatic self-closing device complying with BS EN 1154 or BS EN 1634-1, with the following exceptions: • fire doors to patients’ bedrooms in facilities providing in-patient mental health services; • fire doors to bedrooms in in-patient accommodation for people with learning disabilities; and • fire doors which are kept locked shut
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Vision panel in fire door a legal requirement
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Doors and Accessories
Approved Document B to the Building Regulations only requires them as follows: Vision panels are needed where doors on escape routes sub-divide corridors, or where any doors are hung to swing both ways. Note also the provision in Approved Document M Access to and Use of buildings, concerning vision panels in doors across accessible corridors. -
The inch/25mm rebate/stop harks back to before intumescent seals existed so as Neil says no need to make a frame up to that on a newer door set
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It's a door that is required to resist fire and/or smoke for a defined period to protect the escape route and failure of that door could endanger relevant persons - it requires inspection, I fail to see why the authorities are unsure, it's very straightforward! Remember the quarterly checks are intended to be basic checks by the RP and not a specialist contractor so there should be no major cost implications, could be done whilst on site for an emergency light test visit
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Furniture in large B&B hallway that is a fire escape route?
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Prevention
Hardwood does have a degree of natural fire resistance due to it's density and it can be further treated to give more measurable fire resistance. Spare linen in a cupboard that opened onto the stair would be acceptable if there was a fire door on it - by extension if the sideboard was of suitable fire resistance and not an obstruction you could argue it would be OK - that's the point of risk assessment (That doesn't mean it would be accepted depending on the opinions of the individual fire safety inspecting officer). -
Detector location is off too. Easiest thing would be to sack them unless a large sum of money is involved. You'd need an expert witness report cross referencing BS5839-1 (including old editions to show how long things didn't meet the standard, if ever), the FRA and Articles 5(3) & (4), 8, 13, 17 of the Fire Safety Order.
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The guidance is vague because the expectation is a post 1991 conversion from commercial to residential would be to Approved Document B with Building Regs approval and a stay put policy so no common alarm. In the real world some conversions do have to use a fire engineered approach outside of Approved Document B & operate an evacuate policy with common alarm and these are usually based around Part 1 of BS5839 as they often borrow from ADB volume 2 (which includes residential other and commercial sleeping risk) The Lacors guide which uses Grade A Part 6 systems for conversions into flats is intended primarily for houses converted into flats as these are often traditionally under the radar of local authority Housing Officers as lead enforcers and can be HMO's for s257 of the Housing Act and be liable for licensing if an authority desires under additional licensing if less than 2/3 owner occupied.
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One for the lawyers to examine their leases. Their FRA should have considered other relevant persons in the premises affected by a fire in their demise which should have looked at the ceiling, but would at best all would be expected would be a 30 minute ceiling or linked building wide fire alarm and even they they could argue the unit should have been compliant when they moved in - the 60 minutes requirement is purely connected with the new development and as such the developer is likely to be expected to pay.
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The installer is not the risk assessor - try another one if they are being difficult, they should design to the specification provided. It's semantics really as even if Part 6 it would be a Grade A system that essentially uses the same equipment as a part 1 system. Part 6 cannot provide a suitable system design for the commercial areas whereas a Part 1 system can incorporate sleeping accommodation as well as commercial so Part 1 would suit the project. The guidance is just that - guidance - not prescriptive otherwise there would be no need for a risk assessment and it would not be unreasonable for this scenario to use Part 1
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Legally it's not necessary and you could push it to tribunal as there is nothing for them to test - HMO teams are not fire safety experts and probably don't have a copy of the relevant latest BS guidance. It's up to you how far you want to push back or whether you want to roll over and pay an electrician to essentially not do anything much!
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When selling flat, do I need a fire risk assessment?
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Risk Assessments
If the block has internal common areas it has been legally obliged to have a fire risk assessment since 2006 (Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 ) if all flats have external entrances with no common areas the law was clarified 4 years ago (Fire Safety Act 2021) to explicitly include the external structure of buildings containing 2 or more dwellings so would still have been required to have a fire risk assessment. A summary of the legislation for smaller blocks and how to carry out an FRA is here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-your-small-block-of-flats-safe-from-fire If remedial action is indicated then the Management Company will need to ensure this occurs - if it would affect a sale is dependant on what, if anything, needs to be done. External risk assessors are an option (but choose carefully for someone with flats experience that assess risk not prescriptively tick boxes from a guide)pragmatically but is not currently mandatory. They report to the Responsible Person and would not inform the authorities unless there was an immediate and severe danger to life and an unwillingness of the RP to act on the risk in which case some may morally feel they have to notify (but they are not legally obliged to)
