AnthonyB
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Posts posted by AnthonyB
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If the doors won't perform as intended due to wear & tear or poor original install then remedial work is required to remain compliant with the law and more importantly to keep residents safe especially where the premises are not fully evacuated as is the case with healthcare and care premises.
As this involves capital work it may be wise to use an independent specialist (who would not be doing the repair/replacement work) to give a detailed assessment, also indicating where repair is possible as oppose to replacement. The inspector and risk assessor should work together to determine the benchmark standard to which the doors must meet as minimum (although being post 1992 it would likely be current standard FD30/FD60/FD30S/FD60S doors) -
On 08/03/2025 at 07:42, James Simms said:
I’m currently in the process of renovating my home. It is a 3 bedroom semi detached house and is ‘back to brick’ as such. It’s having a complete electrical rewire, new heating system and smoke alarms will be in all rooms, apart from the main bathroom and loft conversion en-suite. A LD1 or LD2 system from what I’ve looked at on the web?
On the building inspectors last visit she has sent me the site inspection report. She has stated in comments; Discussed mains operated Interlinked smoke detection to be installed in all habitable rooms at all levels within the circulation areas. Note that this is under the old regulations before changes to fire doors. Details required for the proposed doors which will require intumescent strips and appropriate hinges. Fire line board has been applied to the external face of the dormer with additional fire line board also proposed internally.
I started the works 2021, so before fire regulations were changed etc. So my question is, am I required to put intumescent strips on my doors in the house even though I will have smoke alarms installed throughout? The larger door casings would need to be installed to accommodate a fire door would they?
I have fire boarded internally my dormer cheek now.
Any information or links I can be provided with would be greatly appreciated
Thanks, James
Which country are you in - this has an impact as Scotland (& to a lesser extent Wales) do have different standards that may affect the validity of replies you get on here
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Of course you can have wireless linked mains powered detectors these days - in fact they almost all are these days and few places manufacture wire linked domestic alarms these days.
Just install the wireless stuff & get a certificate off the electrician saying it's a Grade D2 LD1/2/3 (depending on where the detectors are) system, issue it to the BCO and they have to accept it as it matches the requirements in Approved Document B which most BCO follow as the standard -
Potentially yes - as FRAs are indicated for dwellings in this situation it could be interpreted as applying to the flat - which is a dwelling. Just because it's in a block of flats and isn't a standalone bungalow doesn't alter anything.
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Not if simultaneous evacuation is in place - one of the reasons for needing simultaneous evacuation is lack of smoke control as well as the usual compartmentation & layout. reasons.
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Yes - whilst in smaller blocks the original notional doors can be accepted as tolerable in a Fire Risk Assessment that is only if they are still in original good working order. If they are defective and beyond reasonable repair then replacement is the only option at which point I'd upgrade to the current spec
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Current installation standards are not retrospective and as long as the sounder circuits are FR it may be tolerable for an existing legacy system based on risk, detection present and as long as the panel is in 'short circuit = fire' mode and not 'short circuit = fault'. The deficiency from current standards should be noted, but as to whether is needs immediate replacement is a matter for the risk assessment
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On 27/02/2025 at 11:54, Guest Matt said:
Is the use of a Dorgard door release/retainer in a high-rise block of flats legally prohibited, or is it merely a recommendation? If it is legally prohibited, in what regulation?
For which doors? There are limits on the use of indirect hold open devices depending on building use & layout and which doors are to be held detailed in BS7273-4 which whilst not law would be used as a benchmark in any legal action - use outside of this would need justification as to how it still afforded suitable safety
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It's in the spirit of the guidance, although if the access room will still have a smoke detector in it then not quite necessary - you can have the vision panel (or no door) or access room detection or finish the partition 500mm below the ceiling.
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Ofsted are not the enforcing body for fire safety and their inspectors are not trained fire safety experts so they will not pick up fire safety issues unless so overwhelmingly bad a lay person would consider it a exceedingly risk often wouldn't realise there is a problem and refer it to a partner agency (fire service).
As the premises must have a written Fire Risk Assessment this should look at required exits and the competent person who completed it be able to advise.
The number and location of exits plus likely maximum occupancy of the hall are all factors and depending on these then it could be found to be acceptable or unacceptable, it's not possible to advise remotely although I would lean towards it being unacceptable unless a written suitable & sufficient FRA covering their use has taken all the factors into account and said it's OK, which there is a possibility it might as I would suspect they don't even have 100 people present.
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If it's an existing older building there is unlikely to be any realistic solution and your competent fire risk assessor should take an holistic approach based on numbers and type of occupants, other provisions such as early detection & protection of escape routes allowing more time for people to filter through and exit, risks present, etc.
Small numbers of people familiar with the premises can usually be accommodated in narrower exits, in the worst cases numbers can need to be fixed at 5 but you may well be OK, but it will limit numbers to some extent. Do a fire drill when the floor is full and see how long it takes to exit - if still in the 2.5-3 minute window you should be fine.
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They certainly should be told what to do if an alarm sounds. With drills there are opposing schools of thought, both with their own pros and cons, that you either pre-warn everyone or pre-warn no one or only selected key personnel, it depends what the outcomes you want are - to test compliance and existing knowledge of what to do or to educate and inform by rehearsing it as a pre planned and notified event.
Best practice is 6 monthly, the minimum is usually annual (but intervals are not prescribed anywhere unlike with older legislation) and for 24/7 premises, particularly where staffing to manage an evacuation will differ at night a night drill (or simulation with key staff if an actual full drill would be too disruptive) is also usually expected as well
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No - there is no fixed expiry in law on an FRA and it only requires repeating upon changes to the premises, risks or relevant persons. However there is a need to regularly review the FRA to ensure it is indeed still relevant and any action points completed and this is usually approximately annual, but not prescribed as such.
FRA providers usually put an expiry on their reports for liability purposes, but it is not legally binding - if your premises are safe and compliant they do not become unsafe & non compliant just because the FRA review isn't to the exact year since last looked at.
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9 hours ago, Duckworth said:
Hi All
anyone know the latest information on the ban of AFFF extinguishers, seems to be a lot of conflicting information on their use past July 2025, but I cant find anything that links any of this information back to any legislation..?
There is a lot of misinformation & upselling out there. July 2025 is indeed the 'end date' for 'old' AFFF containing C8 fluorosurfactants such as PFOA & similar. These stopped being sold well over 10-15 years ago and so many won't be still about as many extinguishers are binned at 5 years and if refilled should have been with other AFFF.Current AFFF contains C6 fluorosurfactants such as PFHxA which are still damaging to the environment (they have to be incinerated at end of life) but not yet outlawed.The EU has published it's legislation for phase out of these which if ratified this year as planned gives a 12 month phase out for new equipment & a 2030 hard stop for all remaining use.We are no longer in the EU so are lagging behind and are still consulting on phase out so it will be at least 2026 before any legislation drops and again an expected hard stop of 2030 or 2031 for that in use - no instant ban.You can currently lawfully buy & have a C6 AFFF extinguisher, but if being ethical (& if your environmental policy is anything more than ticking a box) you can when a new extinguisher is needed or an existing needs Extended Service use a Fluorine Free Foam extinguisher instead, or as many Foam extinguishers are used where they aren't needed you could also use Water, Water Mist, Class A Water Additive, Class ABF Water Additive or ABC Powder dependant on the risk. -
On 17/02/2025 at 15:11, Guest Vivienne said:
I have a fire extinguisher which I need to dispose of but how and where ?? Help please.
NU-SWIFT E 1826 Multi purpose MULTRA DRY POWDER it was last checked in 1961 apparently.
Thanks for your advice.
Vivienne
Where are you - I have an Environment Agency license to dispose of these as well as having a historical collection of old extinguishers which this may be a welcome addition to!
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Guidance is not retrospective, it's up to the fire risk assessment to determine if an upgrade is required due to a change in risk or where the protection under old standards has been proven unsuitable (unusual as injuries and deaths from school fires are virtually unheard of). If the school is in England then both the Government new build and existing school guidance (BB100 & DCLG Educational Guide) still accept a Manual System as minimum, with L4 if used out of hours and L2 (or higher) as compensatory measures (e.g. for CLAP/SCOLA build schools or where other guidance departures exist).
BS5839-1 suggests M or M/P2 or M/P2/L4 or M/P2/L5 -
One for your risk assessor. Lots of considerations - how many people in the office, number and width of exits, travel distances, etc. Text book answer is no, but a risk assessed view might find it tolerable - is there not any way you can move the desks a bit to give more room?
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You should ideally use an accredited installer to ensure that a certified doorset is correctly specified and installed (although admittedly it's no guarantee).
Vents should be avoided unless the room includes plant requiring a minimum specification of ventilation (e.g. boilers) & there is no alternative such as external wall vents. If a fire door (e.g. FD30) they should be intumescent vents or if a firedoor also requiring smoke control (e.g. FD30s) then you would need the vent to be protected by an automatic fire and smoke damper linked to the fire alarm system, usually with detection either side.
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It's not much use on it's own for many things. If you check the manufacturer's test certification you will find it's only good for small linear gaps of up to 15mm high x 85mm deep between walls and floors or similar gaps between a door frame & wall
https://www.soudal.co.uk/sites/default/files/soudal_api/document/F0041630_0001.pdf
https://www.soudal.co.uk/sites/default/files/soudal_api/document/F0041634_0001.pdf
If used with a fire blanket and intumescent mastic capping it can be used for some penetration seals
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If it's over and above legally required life safety requirements and you are aware of any limitations of the system but are still happy for the additional cover then that shouldn't be a problem
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Due to the small size of the premises you can follow the guidance at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-your-small-non-domestic-premises-safe-from-fire
The fire alarm info is below - if you need a fire alarm for legal compliance it should be a BS5839-1 commercial system. If you don't other than for say an access room situation or non life safety property protection then Grade D or higher domestic equipment would be permitted.
The Simplisafe website states their smoke detectors aren't interlinked so wouldn't sound throughout the premises nor have manual call points - for the same money you might as well have a proper wireless interlinked BS5839-6 system with call points such as the Aico brand sold here: https://www.safelincs.co.uk/smoke-alarms/Means of giving warning in the event of a fire
In single storey premises with open plan layouts and small numbers of people, the alarm may be raised by shouting “fire”. Alternatively, the alarm could be raised manually, using a hand-operated bell or siren.
In premises of more than one storey, where the above method of giving warning would be unreliable, an electrical fire alarm system may be necessary. These systems should have ‘break glass’ call points and fire alarm sounders, connected to a control panel.
In premises of more than one storey, where a fire might start and be undetected in its early stages, the fire alarm system may need to incorporate automatic fire detectors (these will generally be smoke detectors or, in the case of kitchens or other rooms in which smoke detectors would cause false alarms, heat detectors).
In premises that do not have, and do not generally need, an electrical fire alarm system, but have inner rooms without adequate vision to the associated access room, interlinked, mains-powered domestic smoke alarms might be used to provide an early warning of a fire to people in an inner room.
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Your proposal is the usual installation in these situations, however different buildings will require more. If there is a risk of spread from rooms to external structure or rooms to floor above that are greater than they should be in a correctly built block then the provision to all rooms may be appropriate.
You know where the issues lay, you specify the cover required based on that. -
22 hours ago, Hayfever said:
I am confused by this as the Regs guidance states;
- routine checks of fire doors that the Responsible Person must ensure are carried out - these checks are only required in blocks of flats in which the top storey is more than 11m above ground level (typically, a building of more than four storeys)
So I am reading this that the 6 monthly fire door checks are not required in a premises under 11m ????? Have I missed something????
Falling into the trap of reading legislation in isolation. Even before the Fire Safety (England) Regulations there was a legal requirement under Article 17 for ALL premises subject to the Fire Safety Order to have a suitable system of maintenance for fire safety measures (including fire doors) however it didn't set intervals leaving that down to guidance & risk assessment. Due to there being a general failure in those managing flats to comply with this the Government introduced prescriptive requirements for the intervals that must be followed for blocks over 11m, but did not remove the existing requirements for other blocks, where guidance suggests 6 monthly communal door checks and annual flat front door checks (but not to 'best endeavours' like larger blocks.)
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Not usually.
Escape window in mixed purpose Building
in Fire Prevention
Posted
It sounds like the flats are ancillary to the use of the event space and if the stair is lobbied does have a situation that is detailed as acceptable if using Approved Document B. Building control are getting more strict on designs that don't fully reflect Approved Document B and increasingly will only consider these if justified in a full fire strategy by a Fire Engineer