AnthonyB
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Posts posted by AnthonyB
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On 16/11/2023 at 13:01, Guest Tom said:
Hi, this is a similar property to mine, Converted building pre 1991 - 3 flats over 3 floors.
Can we install a Grade D Mains wired Smoke Alarm in the communal hallway and then battery powered (non wired) heat alarms in each flat - all 4 devices interlinked ?No. Grade F (battery only) devices would not be suitable as part of a communal fire alarm system, they are only really acceptable for single dwellings that predate the Building Regs requirement for mains alarms. The system should be a commercial grade system (depending on which Government guide you use either a BS5839-6 Grade A or BS5839-1 system, however from an equipment point of view they are identical, just some design differences)
There is scope in the outgoing LACORS guide for a communal grade D system (domestic mains powered) but this is usually only for ground and first floor buildings.
None of these requirements are new, they have simply been ignored until Grenfell brought block fire safety to the forefront. -
Google lens is stumped too - nearest example it could find was an air vent cover!
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It is a bit slow on there sadly. Building Regs in England, Wales, Scotland or NI?
It isn't a defined Key Term in ADB, but the Oxford Dictionary suggests "ancillary (to something) providing necessary support to the main work or activities of an organization" A kitchen could be seen as ancillary to the running of a restaurant, nor is it defined as one of the places of special fire hazard in the same document.
You see plenty of restaurants with the kitchen partly or fully open to the seating area and others fully enclosed or with fire shutters, seemingly according to the whim of the Authority Having Jurisdiction for where the premises is built/fitted out. -
Building Regulations do indeed still have the statutory bar. Fire Safety Regulations don't as it was removed with the repeal of the Fire Precautions Act which used to take the same approach with fire certificates (which led to some rather outdated precautions remaining in place well past their inadequacy was fatally proved).
This means that whilst there is no automatic requirement to upgrade something (unless explicit in a regulation under the Order) it can't be automatically accepted either just because it was OK 20+ years ago - this is where the risk assessment process comes in.
External walls, including balconies and windows etc are explicitly required to be assessed for fire risk in all premises with 2 or more dwellings - however this risk assessment is likely to find most low rise blocks low risk partly because the building standards for these hasn't required high standards of fire performance and still doesn't so it would be wrong to require a higher standard than even a new build requires! -
It has to be considered no matter what the height - the law is clear on this. However the likelihood of being other than low risk is small, the height being one of the factors to consider when assessing the risk.
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On 04/11/2023 at 11:43, Guest Paul said:
Hi
When deciding on simultaneous or stay put strategies in blocks of flats risk assessors seem to decide based on whether the building was built to current building regulations. What year would a conversion be acceptable as being built under current building regulations, and so suitable for stay put?
Flats from 1961 were built to Building Regulations that were based around stay put. Conversions are usually expected to conform to modern Building Regulations i.e. from 1/1/1992 - but the date of conversion is not a hard rule as there are post 1992 conversions requiring simultaneous evacuation and pre 1992 ones that can actually operate stay put. A good assessor won't be blinded by the date, it's a pointer and no more.
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This guide may help determine if the design and installation is OK.
Note that:
Systems, or part of a system should not be located within a space or room where its volume is such that an entire refrigerant leak would cause a refrigerant/air mixture of a
concentration higher than one-fifth of the Lower Flammability Limit (LFL) of the refrigerant (equation 2.2). If this is not possible and the installation is in a machinery room then the use of a refrigerant leak detector and mechanical ventilation should be employed. -
On 24/10/2023 at 05:55, Guest Mark said:
Our office is small open plan office which is 90sqM with another similar office above on first floor. Ground floor is rented by us and the first floor is another separate business. Do we need a fire alarm system or would domestic interlinked smoke alarms suffice?
In premises of more than one storey, an electrical fire alarm system should be installed. These systems should have ‘break glass’ call points and fire alarm sounders, connected to a control panel. (Not domestic smokes!)
In premises of more than one storey, where a fire might start and be undetected in its early stages, the fire alarm system might need to incorporate automatic fire detectors. These will generally be smoke detectors or, in the case of kitchens or other rooms in which smoke detectors would cause false alarms, heat detectors).
As per https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-your-small-non-domestic-premises-safe-from-fire This guide has Article 50 status meaning following it will ensure you are deemed compliant, not following it tends to demonstrate non compliance with the legislation. -
On 28/10/2023 at 15:56, Guest Cupar Womble said:
Hi there. Looking at extinguishers for home and wondering why P50 water mist extinguishers are not rated for categories B and C fires unlike most other water mist extinguishers. Can anyone advise?
No water mist extinguisher can carry an official Class B rating as they can't meet the minimum performance requirements stated in the manufacturing standard EN3. They aren't unsafe but just poor performing - a 2L can obtain an 8B rating, 6 litre 21B, but the minimum they should achieve is 34B & 114B respectively. Likewise they can't claim official effectiveness against Class C fires as this is reserved for Powder extinguishers.
They still represent a very good choice for the home as they cover all the main domestic fire risks - ordinary combustibles, electrical equipment and cooking oils -
There are no internal areas requiring an FRA - are there external stairs and decks? If not then the only possible area that may require addressing is the external wall construction.
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P66 8.11 points out they don't need to be compartment floors, but Table B4 does give a 30 minute fire resistance requirement even when not a compartment floor. Of course the age of the building will have an impact on what was required at the time it was built.
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If not fire resisting external doors for the purpose of protecting an adjacent external escape stair or similar there isn't.
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PAS 9980 gives some useful advice, on the face of it this sounds lower risk unless there's some massive hidden cavity behind the wall! If in doubt get an external wall specialists opinion.
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It does seem a little excessive! The only possible reason I can think of is that if you didn't have the key you would be trapped too close to the house.
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Government Fire Risk Assessment guidance for educational premises, which has ACOP like special status under Article 50 of the Fire Safety Order as all the guides now do, absolutely requires exit signage in anything other than the smallest simplest premises.
Age of Build doesn't help as most signage that would be required for Fire Safety Order compliance is outside the scope of Building Regs so would have been picked up during the Building Control process (which itself is recognised as actually not much use at ensuring even the things that are covered by Building Regulations are correct!) although as emergency lighting would come under the BR process I'm surprised there weren't at least a few internally illuminated exit signs at final exits and rooms used as places of assembly.
Who did the FRA? -
No. Intumescent strips only are a common request by Licensing Officers for HMO's when the common system is only on the stair landings and hallways to prevent a delay in the alarm sounding (it's an old fashioned approach, but remains until their HMO guidance is updated).
As you have detection in the bedrooms then, in accordance with all other guidance for protection of escape routes as well as the HMO guide, smoke seals would be expected. -
11 hours ago, green-foam said:
I can't say I have heard of fire doors in a caravan
I would also say I think interlinked smoke alarms would be a bit too much, it is after all only a caravan.
Sorry to point out the obvious but the original poster, said in the first line, they are asking about a caravan I guess that bit got missed
If you actually read the linked guidance, which has article 50 status, it says:
The fire safety principles and recommendations in this Guide can also be applied to smaller types of outdoor accommodation which fall under the same duties such as holiday caravans, camping and glamping pods, bothies, lodges, shepherds’ huts, tents, tree houses and yurts.
I agree fire doors is taking it a bit far though! -
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The NFCC Guide implies it could be in relation to the staff accommodation.
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Hi,
"......there will be a need for interlinked domestic smoke alarms and heat alarms (of the type normally found in houses and flats) in all areas where a fire might start. Smoke alarms should be installed in hallways, corridors, staircases, lounges, dining rooms and bedrooms. Heat alarms should be installed in every kitchen, and in any other rooms (such as laundry or utility rooms), in which false alarms might occur from smoke alarms, due to cooking fumes, steam, dust, etc.
If roof voids contain any combustible
materials or sources of ignition, detection should also be present there. It is not normally necessary to install smoke or heat alarms in bathrooms or toilets.All smoke and heat alarms in the premises should be interlinked, so that, when any alarm device detects fire, all smoke and heat alarms give an audible alarm simultaneously. Interlinking may be by means of wiring or radio signalling.
Preferably, all smoke and heat alarms should be mains powered with a tamper-proof standby power supply consisting of a battery. These are technically known as
Grade D1 alarms. However, long-life, sealed battery alarms (known as Grade F1 alarms) may be acceptable as a short-term measure. (say, around 2-3 years).Additional equipment is available to provide a warning to Deaf or hard of hearing people in the event of fire. This comprises vibrating devices (for installation under pillows or mattresses) and/or flashing beacons.
Further guidance on the provision of fire detection and alarm systems for premises providing sleeping accommodation can be found in BS 5839-6"
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According to the Housing Act they do - if it meets the definition of a HMO then it is one regardless of the owner/operator.
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There are many firemans switches for many things - is this a yellow box that looks similar to a fire alarm call point but has a three position key switch marked something like "normal/off/extract" or "open/auto/close"
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Are there additional EL fittings from what was there before?
They don't have to use a minor works certificate but the safety declaration, installation details, and the inspection and test results recorded on the client’s documentation should be no less comprehensive than would be included on the MEIWC -
Who told you this?
New Article 21A of the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order 2005
in Fire Risk Assessments
Posted
You would have to present the information in a way that is tailored to their vulnerabilities/disabilities, simplified as required. If they were not deemed as having suitable capacity under MCA 2005 then I suppose you would only have to inform those with legal responsibility/guardianship.
Until some better guidance comes out this is the best I can think of!