AnthonyB
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Posts posted by AnthonyB
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Your agent is applying the 'zero tolerance' approach detailed in Government fire safety guidance as it is the easiest to implement and leaves no ambiguity as to what can be placed in the common areas.
However the guidance does offer an alternative which is ‘managed use’. This approach allows strictly defined use of common parts and limits the items allowed, to control fire load and ease of ignition. It includes strict conditions on where such items can be kept. For example, a ‘managed use’ policy might permit residents to:
• place pot plants and door mats outside their front doors
• have framed pictures and notice boards on walls
• store bicycles, prams and mobility scooters in places that are out of the way and not likely to cause obstruction.It's not popular with agents as it requires a lot more hands on management and a bigger liability risk, but I have assessed premises where it has been effective due to the residents being proactive in monitoring compliance themselves.
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They are not there to aid in escape, and as they are fire extinguishers their very purpose is to fight a fire! The clue is in the name....
From the Government Guidance:
It is not normally considered necessary to provide fire extinguishers or hose reels in the common parts of blocks of flats. Such equipment should only be used by those trained in its use. It is not considered appropriate or practicable for residents in a block of flats to receive such training. In addition, if a fire occurs in a flat, the provision of fire extinguishing appliances in the common parts might encourage the occupants of the flat to enter the common parts to obtain an appliance and return to their flat to fight the fire. Such a procedure is inappropriate
The common parts are your escape route and as such are constructed such that they will be safe from fire for considerable time and should not have a fire starting in them (unless someone has broken the law and introduced fire risks into this area). A typical water or foam extinguisher is unsuitable for most fire risks in flats, which are usually of cooking or electrical nature.
Communal circulation areas are (or should be) fire sterile forming part of the protected escape route for the building and should only include basic carpeting and wall coverings that would not be involved in a fire, if at all, until well after conditions in the area would be fatal to human life.
You would be best placed in removing them and making a saving in the residents service charge budget that can be better spent on other things.
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As it's a private dwelling the internal door requirements are not retrospective, fire safety legislation does not cover these areas.
(If used as a HMO or similar this would be different)
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Fixed ladders are not normally accepted as means of escape under regulations and guidance, however an exception is made for areas that are infrequently used or only resorted to by small numbers, usually under 5, and only staff no public.
So it's not out of the question - bear in mind this assumes all users are fit and able bodied.
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If it's new build the designers may have used BS9999 instead of ADB as it can reduce the number of exits and stairs needed - it may also be fire engineered.
The design fire strategy will give you the answers you seek.
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Not sure if you have already looked but this is pretty much the guide for existing flats https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/fire-safety-purpose-built-04b.pdf
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Normally windows don't have a fire safety role in the common areas of flats as smoke control is provided in other ways - so they aren't addressed by BS9991 or ADB as they aren't a fire safety feature.
The openability of windows only becomes a concern when there are no openable vents, AOV's or smoke shafts.
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In small existing older blocks of certain configurations openable windows can replace the automatic vents or openable vents that would normally be required for smoke control.
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Is this a suite within a larger building or a self contained premises - depending on size and layout you may not actually need anything to meet minimum legal requirements.
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Most carts of this nature have a cheap ABC Powder extinguisher, usually around the 600g- 2kg size range. It's rather messy in use and a cleaner (but more expensive) alternate is the 1.4l Water Mist extinguisher.
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/ultrafire-redline-1kg-abc-dry-powder-fire-extinguisher/
https://www.safelincs.co.uk/1-litre-water-mist-fire-extinguisher-ultrafire/
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You need to commission a fire risk assessor to carry out a full FRA.
However, based on the information the premises seem small enough in scope for the 'Do you have paying guests' guidance to apply which is more sympathetic than the standard Sleeping Premises guidance and allows the use of a Grade D residential smoke alarm system throughout instead.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/do-you-have-paying-guests
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You will be likely to be subject to Building Regulations and so your proposals and plans should go to Local Authority Building Control who will advise what you must do.
In any case you need a Fire Risk Assessment.
If you could upload a sketch plan of the layout I can give some pointers.
Guidance sources: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/422175/9449_Offices_and_Shops_v2.pdf
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I assume you mean the Gloria brand of fire extinguishers? What type and size is it as the markings vary.
It's likely to be the manufacture month and year, although as you are supposed to be having them serviced every year it shouldn't be an issue if being done properly...however....it would be unusual to see an extinguisher this old (if not CO2) still in service if being correctly serviced unless you have a traditional fire protection firm that is taking the extinguishers out of the building every 5 years to discharge, internally inspect and refill rather than just replace with new.
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These are all suitable (https://www.locksonline.co.uk/Fire-Rated-Mortice-Locks-For-Fire-Doors.html) as are digilocks. You can have certain holes in fire doors, otherwise you couldn't have letterboxes in fire doors (which you can).
Rather odd they didn't comment on the other 7 unless llocated away from escape routes
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If an existing operating premises and not a fit out in progress it's outside the jurisdiction of Building Control and is a matter controlled under the Fire Safety Order enforced by the Fire Service. Under this you, as the Responsible Person are required to determine your requirements by a Fire Risk Assessment, which as licensed premises should be written regardless of the number of employees.
Fire Angel devices are for domestic premises only, although in certain circumstances may be mitigated in a Fire Risk Assessment if of the dual power supply type (mains and battery).
The first requirement is for raising the alarm throughout the premises if someone discovers a fire - in really small premises this can be verbal (taking in to account background noise) if a shout could be clearly heard throughout the premises. If not then some form of enhanced warning is required - this would be an electrical fire alarm system to BS5839-1 Category M, comprising manual 'break glass' call points & alarm sounders linked via a control panel.
You don't need automatic fire detection in most non sleeping premises unless the layout or risk requires it (or you choose to for property protection purposes which isn't a legal requirement) although in your case you my need some coverage - only a site visit as part of an FRA can determine this unless you have decent accurate floorplans. -
Fire Warden training is a nice money maker for training companies, but there is nothing to stop the basic duties in an emergency being taught in house. With small numbers of staff a roll call may suffice as an alternative as it won't take too long (unlike normal situations where 10 minutes later names are still being checked off!)
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Considering how many newsworthy fires in defective buildings, newsworthy critical defects uncovered and the general experience of the fire safety sector I wouldn't rely on an AI or BCO for fire safety advice - too much stuff gets signed off only later to be revealed to be substandard and need reworking at great expense.
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That's just wrong, utterly wrong and a clear sign that the installation was not done by competent persons.
Some fire alarm systems, due to the load on them and the required standby time, do need additional battery capacity outside that contained in the alarm panel, but there are purpose built Power Supply Units with internal charger for this purpose (e.g. https://www.safelincs.co.uk/24vdc-en54-4-approved-power-supply-units/).
You can add photos as an attachment on this forum, it would be interesting to see what it looks like!
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You don't have to be an electrician to do the 3 hour test, just competent and know what to do. Nothing in law says it has to be.
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Damaging labels is why it's preferred to put the seals in the frame and not the door, solves your problem - fire door frames often have the channels pre-cut.
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If the doors are onto an enclosed common escape route the simple answer is sadly no. The doors are allowed to have a gap of 3-4mm rather than being really tight up.
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You don't have to be an electrician to do the 3 hour test, just competent and know what to do. Nothing in law says it has to be.
Mr
in Fire Doors and Accessories
Posted
It's purely a convenience factor - for use in high traffic areas where the doors being closed would hinder circulation leading to the doors being wedged or damaged (the later particularly where trolleys of goods are pushed through).
The hold opens will ensure the doors can always shut when they need to be.