AnthonyB
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Posts posted by AnthonyB
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Older single chain perko's don't usually meet current or even contemporary standards (it's not impossible though, compliant versions do exist and have done for a while). In existing premises it's usually only rising butt hinges or no closer at all that is a high priority non conformity, as your build was during the period after the introduction of the 'modern' building guidance of Approved Document B then as a compliant fitting at the time, with a compliant door leaf and layout of the building being post 1991, it would usually be acceptable whilst still in full working order.
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Single dwellinghouse - no self closer or signs needed
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It depends where it is an what it's covering. If it's in a non industrial indoor environment then usually yes as it can be deleterious to escape, health and the materials/equipment in the room.
If it's in a building where the public are present, or healthcare premises or if on an escape route I will normally ask for immediate replacement, if elsewhere then it can wait until the 5 year extended service is due - if it's covering a risk where no extinguisher is required in it's place (e.g. gas/boilers) then it can go there and then!
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No, it doesn't replace the requirement for extinguishers, a fire will still grow to a reasonable size in a room before the heads go. It can allow a reduction in scales, but there should still be extinguishers provided as per BB100 the Government design guide for fire safety in schools, concentrating on risk areas, e.g. CO2 & fire blanket to labs and food tech, Wet Chemical to main kitchens etc
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Is this a house or commercial? If a house you don't need the signs or the self closer. If it's commercial, it's a different matter.
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I've just realised - this is a new build that's still on paper?
You may benefit from designing to BS9999 and not Approved Document B - it is more generous and flexible in it's approach. -
For an existing premises, yes - simple single action, no key required in direction of escape, can't be latched shut, no snib.
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Whilst it wouldn't win a Plain English reward, it is indeed saying the 5mm/person rule is only for doors over 1050mm
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It's up to whoever is responsible for the common areas. If they are taking a 'zero tolerance' approach to compliance then you would expect them to be removed. If they wish to implement and monitor a 'managed use' approach then framed pictures could be retained.
It's discussed in here p55-61 https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/fire-safety-purpose-built-04b.pdf -
They seem to be correctly applying the LACORS guidance now I have the detail as to why they are requiring these steps, the additional steps are due to the unusual layout. The fire alarm requirement is still domestic alarms, just the mains type as have been required for many years.
As it's clear the premises are in the selective licensing area you are going to need to do the work.
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Your local authorities Health Protection/Environmental Services/Environmental Health department (they all have different names in different councils these days!)
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They are applying "strict rules of ADB" to paraphrase the film Goldfinger - which says that every flat should have rooms accessed off an internal protected lobby (the common area it opens off is immaterial) a principle that's been around for decades.
Oddly they are ignoring the bedroom off the kitchen (unless they are counting an escape window in the bedroom as an alternate escape as it's ground floor).
They are acting correctly - of course ADB is just a suggested method of complying with Building Regulations and if you can provide an alternative approach that provides at least equivalent safety then it is acceptable too.
If you had a different AI who accepted a non ADB layout without compensatory measures then that was good fortune on your part in that case.
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This is aimed at housing, particularly where vulnerable individuals who live in the community are concerned.
https://www.nationalfirechiefs.org.uk/write/MediaUploads/NFCC Guidance publications/NFCC_Specialised_Housing_Guidance_-_Copy.pdf -
You are straying into property law so need a specialist sector legal adviser, however the risk assessors are correct and there is no legal requirement for the system - your leases will determine what you are obliged to pay towards and if it is something not actually legally required you may have grounds for a legal challenge - there was a group action by leaseholders against having to bear the cost of new fire doors which, in the specific situation of their property, were not actually required, they won their case.
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I've answered your duplicate post in the Fire Risk Assessment section - something isn't right somewhere!
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This sounds like the Council is treating your premises as a HMO requiring licensing and with it more stringent fire safety requirements than a typical house.
Your description is of a typical single household let which doesn't require mandatory licensing and does not require the additional precautions mentioned - also it isn't covered by the Fire Safety Order and doesn't require a Fire Risk Assessment.
When did you personally (not any agent you may employ) last inspect the premises? It's not unknown for the original tenants to illegally sublet and thus bring the house under HMO & Fire Safety legislation - it's also not unknown for agents to do this either whilst letting their client think they have a single traditional tenant.
If your property is in Bootle (in the areas in this map https://www.sefton.gov.uk/media/1329025/BootleSL_map.pdf and on this list https://www.sefton.gov.uk/media/1329022/SL-Designation_Final.pdf)then there is a Selective Licensing scheme where Sefton Council have acquired the rights to license ALL rental premises, even single household lets (usually because of a high percentage of rental properties found in deficient condition in the area) in which case you would need a license, but unless it's been turned into a HMO without your knowledge the fire safety requirements are minimal:Escape routes
No requirement for full 30-minute protected route * but the escape route should have sound, conventional construction and should not pass through risk roomsNo requirement for fire doors *, but sound, well constructed and close-fitting conventional doors are required Alternatively, provide suitable escape windows from bedrooms and living rooms
Fire separation
No requirement for additional fire resistance, but walls and floors should be of sound, conventional construction. If a basement/cellar is present, 30-minute separation between the cellar and the ground floor escape route is the ideal
Fire detection and alarm system
Grade D1, LD3 system • interlinked mains wired smoke alarms with integral tamperproof battery back-up located in the escape route at ground and first floor levels; and • additional interlinked smoke alarms with integral battery back-up located in any cellar
Lighting of escape routes
No requirement for emergency escape lighting, but conventional artificial lighting is required
Fire fighting equipment
It is recommended good practice to provide a fire blanket in the kitchen
Fire safety signs
No requirement
Surface finishes & floor coverings
No requirement
Management and maintenance of fire safety
It is recommended that all doors are kept closed at night
* where construction standards are poor, travel distances are long or other higher risk factors are present, a 30-minute protected route may be required.
https://www.sefton.gov.uk/housing/private-housing/selective-licensing.aspx
https://www.sefton.gov.uk/housing/private-housing/additional-(hmo)-licensing.aspx
https://www.sefton.gov.uk/housing/private-housing/mandatory-hmo-licensing.aspx
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With external access areas the usual rule of thumb is FD30 doors where they may need to be passed by other people to escape, assuming walkways do not exceed 2m so overhang doesn't trap smoke.
This situation is a bit of a mix of external and internal factors, this is where the risk assessors expertise comes into play as you have to use your judgement. If the doors have to be passed by others then you are at FD30. If the layout allows smoke logging (such as the enclosed section) then that goes up to FD30s as if fully enclosed.
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Yes, you decided to change the kitchen so you pay for it - your lease will place obligations on you for various aspects and this probably counts - I assume the existing kitchen was suitable under housing legislation.
Is it a flat or self contained house?
The rules they are applying should come from here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/832631/Approved_Document_B__fire_safety__volume_1_-_2019_edition.pdf -
Is the central stair the only one with refuge space?
Ideally each stair should have provision as it's healthcare and evac matresses are usually preferred as most chairs don't suit the service users. -
Just surf the web on fire safety key words and you will see the mass of information promoting the use of TPC contractors!
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Are you going to be the occupier? If so and you are not altering the layout you aren't required to change anything - it's a private dwelling and not subject to specific regulations unless you make a change that causes Building Regulations to kick in or you are going to rent it out.
If you are just changing the doors then you mustn't make the situation any more worse than it originally was so need to maintain the existing standard of door or better.
You would, if using current standards, need a 20 minute fire door (FD20/E20). These aren't usually manufactured anymore so common practice is to use a FD30 door and frame and ironmongery (hinges, handles, etc) but without intumescent strips. A closer isn't required. -
Yes, if the council is using the zero tolerance approach to these areas instead of managed use. The whole point of the areas being concrete and sterile is to prevent a fire starting in the common areas as the design of flats and the stay put policy is these areas are sterile.
In the past serious fires have occurred and firefighters hampered by items in common parts, often as a result of arson. Tyres and seats burn, plastic melts and burns and whilst not immediately ignitable these items all include materials which will burn and produce thick black toxic smoke if exposed to a pilot fire using accelerant.
There is scope for use of common areas for certain storage and items, but it requires ongoing management, regular inspections and 100% buy in and compliance from all residents and so most landlords take the easier option of zero tolerance. -
BS EN 13322-1:2003+A1:2006 - Transportable gas cylinders. Refillable welded steel gas cylinders. Design and construction. Carbon steel
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You don't (currently although this could change) need it - but you may find in the future it severely limits the amount & type of work you may get in future as the fallout from Grenfell kickstarts the move towards customers only using third party certified suppliers.
Earth cable used for twin wire system
in Fire Alarm Systems
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Absolutely not and it didn't comply at the time of installation either and is exceedingly dangerous in a care home where evacuation is progressive and the integrity of the alarm system is critical.
The sounders should have been in FP as a minimum and the panel set to SC=F. If you are upgrading the system should be to current standards with full FP wiring.
A way to avoid disruption is to use wireless fire alarm technology https://www.safelincs.co.uk/wireless-fire-alarm-systems/