Meady

I was wondering if anyone had any experience or thoughts on this please? We have had a new gas system installed in a small block of offices; it has 3 floors (ground, first and second) and has a single, protected stairway. The contractors have finished, but we went to inspect the premises today for general H&S reasons, and noticed that the main gas pipe has been fixed in the singe stairway. Its copper and has not been enclosed in any way - I have attached a photo to show you what I mean. Does this cause anyone a concern? I've never seen this before - in the other properties we look after, the gas pipes are enclosed in cupboards and have vents / grills to the outside wall. Is this 'compliant'? I have done a bit of research and found this on a contractors website, but don't fully understand what it is saying, or what the fire hazards are associated with this? Using Building Regulations guidance ADB and BS9999 , gas service and installation pipes or associated meters should not be incorporated within a protected stairway unless the gas installation is in accordance with the requirements for installation and connection set out in Pipelines Safety Regulations 1996 [62] in respect of the service pipes for natural gas and Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998. My worry is that tenants may somehow damage the pipe accidentally. But wondered if anyone had any experience or thoughts which may help guide me in the right direction please?

That's great - thanks very much Tom.

Please can someone tell me if all hatches to lofts / voids which form part of ceilings along means of escape (protected corridors and stairs) need to be fire rated or not? We cannot see anything in ADB Vol 2 which specifically mentions this so any steer would be much appreciated! ?

Thank you AnthonyB - much appreciated. I have just spoken to Building Control and they definitely want to inspect - appears the external stair was added circa 1960's due to alterations made within the 9x flats which have access to the external stair (travel distances extended by the looks of things). Thank you so much - glad we asked before the landlord went ahead and started dismantling the stairway!

Please can we ask for some steer on a subject relating to a block of flats we manage - we dont expect anyone to comment on the FRA's judgement, just whether or not you think Building Control should be involved in the final decision... Sorry if there is too much info here, but the situation we have is... 19 privately owned and occupied flats in a building which is ground floor + 7 upper floors and 1 basement. In addition, a roof space room houses water tanks and lift motor equipment. Single internal stairway - protected by FD30s doors at each level. Simultaneous evacuation adopted in 2017 - prior, was a 'stay put'. Communal alarm with AFD (smoke) at each floor level and Manual Call Point next to porters desk / office on ground floor. A heat detector linked to communal fire alarm is also found just inside each flat entrance doorway (approx. 2m distance). One side of the building has an original steel stairway which is accessible from approximately 9 of the flats. The remaining flats have no external stairway. The external stair still has 'FIRE EXIT' signage displayed. The condition of the stair is poor - very rusty. Plus, the facade along the stair is not fully protected. Several glazed apertures are openable. The FRA we had completed in 2021 (February) shows that the assessor feels the external staircase is not needed as the internal stair is protected from fire and smoke for 30-mins. Plus early warning of fire has been introduced since original construction. Landlord is obviously delighted as he thinks he can get rid of the external stairway and save a fortune in having it repaired (possibly even replaced). Should we / the landlord advise local building authorities of the suggestion of removing the external stairway before we jump in 2 footed and do anything?? Any steer / guidance always appreciated!

Hi all, Quick question - old pub (built 1600's). Timber floors throughout. L1 alarm system was installed in 2010 as compensation for uncertainty on building materials / levels of fire resistance. Separate sleeping accommodation above pub (private flats with own independent entry / exit). Question is, would you expect the basement / beer cellar ceiling to be compartmented?? They have a fire door on ground floor to the cellar, but when you get down in the cellar, the ceiling is riddled with holes to allow pipes and cables to travel up... There is no formal fire strategy which i guess is normal for this type / age of premises. Reason for query is that previous FRA's have always said that the L1 alarm system is adequate to compensate for any defects to compartmentation...new FRA this year states that the cellar must be separated from ground with 60-min fire resistant material. The alarm is interlinked to sounders in the flats above too.

Hi AnthonyB - yes, that sounds a lot more "adjacent" than the 4-5m! ? thanks again for your help.

Well...the MCP in question is approx. 4-5m distance from the emergency exit door....the occupants would have to veer away from the escape route / exit slightly to reach it (thats if they remember its there). My thinking was that it should roughly be arms length (I know everyone's arms are different length so was using 1.5m max distance as a guide) so they could hit it as they escaped?

Thank you guys for your honest opinions - really appreciated.

When installing a new Fire Alarm system to BS5839-1, what is the maximum distance allowed between the exit door and the MCP? I have looked at BS5839-1 but cannot find anywhere that states a specific distance (only heights from floor)?

Thanks again Anthony B

Please can someone give us a steer on the legalities of this one...? A block of flats - some of the flats are owner occupied and some are rented. Communal area falls under Landlord jurisdiction. What are the legal responsibilities for smoke alarms in the flats? Are we correct in thinking a) smoke alarms must be installed in the rented flats, and b) there is no legal requirement for the people living in the owner occupied flats to have any smoke alarms at all (it is their choice)? Any help much appreciated.

A very quick question - what are peoples thoughts / experiences on P50's being installed in buildings??? Have had two very different views provided to me this week - one for (guy made it sound like everyone needs a P50 in their life they are so good!) and one strongly against (due to not meeting BS5306)... Both parties sell their respective extinguishers so I don't want to be swayed by the sales talk and would really appreciate peoples honest opinions...good and bad! ?

Yes, apologies for incorrect terminology. I meant that 2 detectors need to detect the smoke. The problem we have with the investigation period is that for periods of the day, there is no reception or security staff. So the worry is, if the fire alarm for the building activates, and it is discovered that the cause is from an unoccupied floor level, who is the one to investigate?? The tenants are each made to have their own Fire Wardens to check their respective floor areas, and this includes the communal parts on their floors such as toilets. But we have 2 floors completely empty at the moment, so if a detector creates a fire alarm activation on these floors, and there is no apparant sign of smoke / flames, who should investigate - we wouldn't expect the tenants on the other floors to go into the unoccupied floor levels to investigate (or should we?!). Thanks again AnthonyB for your help.

We manage an office block of 6 floors - some of the floor levels are unoccupied due to COVID. Building strategy is full / simultaneous evacuation (approx. 300 people). At present, the fire alarm is a single knock system - would it be acceptable (subject to risk assessment) to change the system, or just the system on unoccupied floors, to a double-knock style? We are worried that faulty detectors in unoccupied levels may result in the whole building evacuating unnecessarily. The idea is that if a double knock system is introduced, if the alarm panel shows a detection in unoccupied areas, the site security / reception can investigate, and then after 5-6 mins, the alarm goes into full evacuation mode if not switched off? Also, generally, if the system remains as a 'single knock' and the fire alarm activates as a result of a single detector in the unoccupied areas, but no signs of fire / smoke, should we still ring 999 or should we investigate first?? My worry is that the rest of the building will be evacuating down using the stairs, and yet if the security / reception are told to investigate, they will be going up the stairs, in the opposite direction of flow! Are there any particular rules / guidance on whether a single knock or double knock system is needed please? Sorry if these are silly / overthought questions.

Thank you Tom - much appreciated.

Hi AnthonyB, thank you very much as always. That's really helpful with our discussions with the client.

Hi, we have a quick question regarding a new restaurant we are managing for a client. fairly small with each floor level approximately 250-300sqm. Ground and basement only. Mixed purpose groups above (offices and some flats higher up). Kitchen is at rear of ground floor. Client wants open servery. Basement is served with single stairway only. Once at the top of stairs, customers have to head towards front entrance / exit doorway which leads to high street. Distance from top of stairway and the wall / door / servery to kitchen will be approximately 3-4m. Looking at L2 fire alarm systems. Glass smoke vents to basement at pavement level. Looking at fitting FD60s at base of stair. Is this okay? Our thoughts were that a door at top of stair may cause falls / trips in a panic situation. Also, having mag-holder with possible 20-sec delay to allow occupants in basement time to get through doorway before it closes? Does the kitchen on ground floor need to be fully enclosed behind 30-mins materials including door, and should there be automatic fire shutter on the servery? Would a kitchen suppression mean that the kitchen doesn't need to have fire resistance at all? Any guidance always appreciated! We have looked at HM guidance books for offices / shops (this was closest to restaurant we could find?) and also ADB/BS9999. Thanks as always.

We have a warehouse used for paper (2.5ton reels) which is over 20,000msq. Approximately 40,000msq to be fair! Originally built 30(ish) years ago. Had (past tense) a sprinkler system fitted. Problems occurred when sprinkler pipes began to leak, causing damage to paper stock. Resulted in customer complaints, so the then owners decided to disconnect the sprinkler system...avoids paper getting damaged and saved maintenance costs of sprinkler system. ? As the building originally had a sprinkler system, must the Responsible Person (new owner) reinstate the sprinkler? I can see Building Regulations guidance gives 20,000msq as the threshold for new buildings, plus guidance for sprinklers recommends that warehouses over 20,000msq have sprinklers, but unless it is mandatory, the client will not do it. The Fire Risk Assessment seems a bit unclear and says that it is recommended the sprinkler system be reinstated... Any guidance / experience / help much appreciated here!

That's great - thank you AnthonyB! ?

Hi AnthonyB - as always, thank you for such a great, comprehensive answer. So, same question but in a block of flats, would you expect cupboards within stairways used for means of escape to be FD30/60s or just FD30/60? I am just thinking of a block where I know the doors to flats and stairs are FD30s but the cupboards to electrical meters and risers are FD30 with no smoke seal/brush (just fire strip). Would this be better to have FD30s on cupboards? How would a fire in the cupboards be detected in early stages if smoke seals fitted? Also, in some flats (more modern) they may have automatic detection in stairs to actuate AOV's... would you then recommend auto detection in the risers?

Thank you again AnthonyB - always much appreciated.

Hi Do all fire doors in commercial premises need to have smoke seals fitted? in this case, an office accommodation. The query has been raised that, whilst fire doors along means of escape such as stairways and protected corridors have fire strips (intumescent) and smoke brushes, doors to store rooms, boiler cupboards, electrical equipment housing in accommodation areas have only fire/intumescent strips. Third party Fire Risk Assessor has said that all fire doors must have both intumescent strips and smoke seals/brushes. But, a third party fire consultant has said that this is not the case - reason being that, in an office accommodation, there is not any requirement for fire detection in these cupboards. So, the doors need to allow a small amount of smoke to escape so that occupants can see and raise the alarm (which to me makes sense). But the FRA doesn't explain why all doors need smoke seals - appears to be a generic action perhaps? I have been looking at ADB Vol 2, Table C1 but this is obviously for brand new buildings and not one like ours which is 1970(ish). We had the smoke seals retrospectively fitted to the doors along escape routes about 5 years ago as this made perfect sense to avoid smoke spreading to the stairs and corridors - but is there a change of standard that says all doors now have to have smoke seals? As always, any guidance always appreciated.

We manage a few properties on behalf of a landlord - this query relates to a commercial property occupied by a single tenant for Office purposes. The tenant occupies 100% of the building. No shared or sub-let parts. As there are no common areas, does the Landlord need to arrange a FRA for anything, or should the tenant be responsible for this entirely?

Just supporting Anthony's comments re. electrician / alarm engineers fitting smoke vents - we had a brand new block of flats built last year with all bells and whistles...but, at sign-off / handover stage, the Building Control Officer luckily spotted the fact that no manual controls for the ventilation system had been fitted at all...also, after further cause and effect testing, we noted that the AOV's opened on every single floor (20+ storey building).... we ended up (at some considerable expense) finding a competent contractor who specialised in smoke ventilation systems sorting this out for us. Lesson of the day...learn from others mistakes! ?