Meady

If anyone has a moment, please could I have your expert steer on a FRA due to be carried out? The basics: Converted building (originally built circa 1900 but conversion in recent years so not purpose built block of flats) The property as a whole is rented by the same party Communal stair and main entrance – each flat has own independent entrance door opening on to stair Each of the 4 flats has four bedrooms and a shared lounge, diner, kitchen and bathroom. The premises are not registered for HMO purposes (being the 4 bedroom rule). The plan is to use the building to house refugees before being housed permanently… so the tenants / occupants may have no connections at all, or they could be a family – so it is very open as to who will be there, and for how long… The FRA is a Type 3 inspection with communal areas and each flat being looked at. For the purpose of the FRA, would you consider this as a non-purpose built block of 4 flats, or would you treat each flat as a separate HMO? The managing agent we have been appointed by is asking for this to be treated as a block of flats (so jurisdiction applying to communal areas and including front doors to flats) and for me to purely comment on fire safety in each of the 4 flats. But I am worried that each flat should be treated as HMO (albeit not licenced) as 4 people, possibly unknown to each other, could be staying there – therefore, fire doors with self closers, etc. would be needed. Guidance I would typically use would be LACORS and HM Guidance for Sleeping risks… but LACORS obviously has various case studies depending on the use. As always, any steer whatsoever is greatly appreciated!

Thank you as always AnthonyB - much appreciated.

Does anyone know if self-testing emergency escape lighting still needs a 3-hour discharge test each year?? We're looking at BS5266-1 and BS EN 50172 and we cant see where it mentions self-testing systems? Any help / guidance much appreciated.

Does anyone know if it is a mandatory requirement for fire alarms in Care Homes / Hospices in England to be linked directly to an Alarm Receiving Centre? I believe in Scotland that it is (following Rose Park Care Home) but cannot find anywhere in writing that says it must be linked in England? I have seen some FRA's where the assessor recommends it (especially in cases where staff turnover is high or they use agency staff who may not appreciate / understand the importance of ringing 999 immediately). But have searched high & low and cannot find anything else... Or does it come down to the FRA as to whether or not it is linked? If anyone has any guidance they can direct me towards, it would be much appreciated!

Hi, we have a block of flats which sit above a low risk commercial unit. Flats have own independent entry/exit doorway and there is suitable separation between commercial and residential parts. The flats (7 in total) sit on 3 floor levels above ground, so 4 floor in total. Each flat is privately owned and entrances are provided with lobby approach (2 x FD30s) at each floor level. We have been using LACORS for guidance on fire alarm systems; the building is pre-1991 and converted self-contained flats. Are we correct in thinking that the building should have a mixed system of Grade A (LD2) in communal parts with heat detector inside doorway of each flat; and a Grade D (LD3) non-interlinked detection inside each flat?? If this is correct, what are peoples thoughts on Manual Call Points?? The building is higher end of market. Occupants are all professional and there is little concern of there being mis-use of MCP's. Any thoughts / guidance much appreciated.

? thank you AnthonyB - are we correct in our other calculations and that the remaining width must be no less than 1050mm after we have deducted the largest door for 165 people?

Please can we have some guidance on interpreting ADB - this is for a brand new village hall so we are using ADB Vol. 2 and specifically looking at tables 2.2 and 2.3. We have established and agreed with the architect that the capacity based upon 1m/person density is 165. So looking at table 2.2, we need at least 2 exit doorways. What we are struggling with is the widths. Reading Table 2.3, we need to deduct the largest doorway and use the remaining door width for the calculation. Does the remaining door width after we have discounted the largest then need to be no less than 1050mm as we have more than 110 but less than 220?? Please can anyone explain what Note 3 means when it says "Widths less than 1050mm should not be interpolated"?? Are we correct in saying the 5mm rule / person does not apply for any door width less than 1050mm too? Thank you in advance for your help / guidance.

Whilst this should be subject to Fire Risk Assessment (hate saying that as it always sounds like a way of swerving the answer) but further guidance can be found at: British Standard 9991 – Section 7.3 Approved Document B – Section 3.29 Local Government Fire safety in purpose-built blocks of flats – Section 59.5 The face of the building (excluding window openings) should provide at least 30mins fire resistance and window openings should not extend below a height of 1100 mm above the deck level. Surface materials of the facing wall, balcony soffit and balustrade should be of Class 0 rating. The idea is that if fire escapes the flat through the window, occupants needing to pass by the flat can crawl beneath and hopefully escape. If entrance to each flat is afforded via external balcony / deck approach you need to check the width (less than 2m in width is fine). There is a risk of smoke logging if the balcony / deck above is more than 2m. The requirement is for the doors to be FD30 level (no mention of smoke) but as Tom says above, the Risk Assessment may indicate that smoke protection would be beneficial.

If it is a fire exit door (i.e. leading directly to fresh air) then typically this would not need to be fire resistant so is there any reason why they've got a FD30 leaf and frame? Unless it opens out on to an external escape route or external escape stairway in which case a fire door may be needed to protect occupants using the outside routes? If it does need to be a fire resistant door, you are absolutely correct in saying that none of the door-set components can be adjusted unless it is completed in line with manufacturers instructions - otherwise the door-set is invalidated. If its a commercial premises, there must be a fire risk assessment in place which would address this too.

Hi Anthony...thank you for your reply. It is definitely ADB they have used, but as with many cases I am seeing, a fire strategy document is a mythical item which architects and main contractors ignore to produce... Thanks anyway for your reply.

Scenario is a new office block - ground plus 4 storey above (no basement). All office / administration use. All standard construction and each floor has lobby approach to staircase. No alternative means of escape from the upper floor levels. Under ADB Vol 2 (3.3 - Single escape stairs) from what I can read, a maximum of 60 occupants is permitted at each floor level subject to travel distance criteria being met and if any floor is above 11m, a second means of escape is made available... But, then looking at 2.9 in ADB Vol 2 (Number of occupants and exits) if the total occupancy for the building is >60 then 2 or more final exits are required... In my example, each floor has 50 people & therefore total being 250. Question is should there be at least two final exits provided at ground level at base of stairs, separated by fire resistant structure from one another as total occupancy will be >60? Or is a single final exit adequate at the base of stairway leading directly to fresh air be acceptable, as long as stairway width is suitable and final exit width considers total numbers of occupants in building who will need to use it, i.e. 200? Ground floor occupants will have several other final exits they could use, but people on upper floors (approximately 200) will all have to use the main entrance / exit doorway which is at base of stairway. Any guidance much appreciated!!

Okay, thanks Tom.

Hi, Please could someone give me a steer on guidance to use for fire safety in mix occupancy (shop / office on ground floor and residential flat on first floor). Not purpose built - was a 1900's dwelling converted approximately 1950's. I've been looking at LACORS and DCLG/HM Guidance for sleeping accommodation - is there anything else? Due to the fire separation between the commercial unit (Hairdressers) and first floor being uncertain, I wanted a guide to show what compensatory features we could use, in particular early warning, linking in to flat. But didn't know if Heat detectors in ground floor were permitted to prevent false alarms in the flat due to hairsprays and steam setting of smoke heads! Any guidance / steer as to what guides to use would be much appreciated.

Thank you @green foam - that's a great help.

Hi, silly question but in our office we have huge amounts of portable electrical equipment such as monitors, PC's, laptops, kettles, microwaves, photocopiers, printers, etc. A typical large open plan office. The building is fitted throughout with a sprinkler system which is obviously a plus point! But, is there not a risk of electrocution or other problems if the sprinkler system activates over a piece of electrical equipment that is plugged in to the mains?? Also, when does the sprinkler stop putting water on the fire?? Does it work for a certain period of time or does it automatically somehow recognise when the flames are extinguished and stop?? We're worried it may keep throwing water on the equipment in the area(s) where a fire starts which may cause other damage. Any advice always appreciated!!

Thank you AnthonyB & Harry for your thoughts - I will stand by my original thoughts and tell them it is in their best interest to have them commissioned (by a competent person)...

Thank you both so far for your comments... My thoughts as a novice are why would you not want to commission the fire extinguishers to help evidence compliance with the FSO 2005? I'm looking at articles 17 & 18 in particular, but can probably drag in a few more if needed... If the Fire Alarm and Emergency Lighting systems (as well as others) need to be commissioned, then surely the extinguishers do too? Or am I looking at this from the wrong angle? Also, most clients will never remember to make sure the extinguishers are checked each year if there are no labels to remind them...

Please can I has some advice...client has purchased 50 x Water and 50 x CO2 extinguishers from the internet. All are BS EN 3 labeled. But, he has hung them himself without professional commissioning. Now, he has called his regular FRA man who is ex-Fire Service who has advised (in writing) that whilst BS5306 Part 8 says that they should be commissioned first, it doesn't say they must and they will be acceptable for the first year without needing to be professionally checked and certificated?? Has anyone ever heard of this before? The client is now thinking the other FR Assessor is the best thing ever because he's saving him £'s by not having to commission all these extinguishers!! Any help / back-up to justify why they should be inspected would be much appreciated.

Please can I ask anyone for their thoughts on this one please...?New warehouse has been constructed; approx 500msq footprint. Sub-divided for storage (vertical / high racking); offices; kitchenette; plant room (on mezzanine).Warehouse / storage area is separated with brick wall from floor to apex of roof.But separation between warehouse / storage area and Plant room on mezzanine is stud wall with plasterboard. But, only one side (which is the warehouse side) has plasterboard lining - the Plant Room side is exposed studwork??Should not both sides be plaster boarded (and taped and sealed gaps??) to protect the stud work completely?I've attached photo taken from the Plant room side to help show what I am waffling on about!!Any guidance / help always appreciated.

We're trying to work out what a safe number is for our call centre - BS9999 / ADB Vol 2 show 6m / person for Offices (as a guide)...But, we have introduced smaller desks (1200mm x 800mm) as opposed to the original desks in the office space.Is there a specific guide for calculating the occupancy capacity for 'call centre' environments?? As always, any guidance always very much appreciated!

Hi, not strictly FRA query, but more to do with Building Regs. In particular, what is allowable materials for external walls. Situation is a new build - small offices of two storeys where the total height of building is <18m. Approx. 150msq footprint so fairly small. Building is positioned between two existing buildings (steel portal framed commercial units with steel cladding on external walls). The distances between the new build and the adjoining units is >1000mm (more like 3m-4m). The external walls (all) of the new offices have timber cladding. It was confirmed that the timber has not been treated for fire resistance. Looking at ADB Vol (I've attached diagram I am looking at) am I right in thinking that it is acceptable to have combustible lining on the external walls as the premises are <18m high, and more than 1000mm from adjacent buildings / boundary?? Any help / advice always appreciated!!

Thank you Tom - that makes things a lot cleared.

Hi, sorry to trouble you but can we ask your advice on a fire call point query we have please? We have a large(ish) room (25m x 12m) which is used for places of assembly (village hall). The room adjoins other rooms which then have fire / emergency exit doors. Do we need to have call points adjacent to the doors which leave the big room, or can we have just call points next to the final exits in the other rooms?? I’ve looked up on Google and we’re confused as it says 45m distance is acceptable for a ‘defined’ route, but only 30m for an ‘undefined’ route….but we don’t understand what the difference is between these two types of routes?!! Any help / advice would be much appreciated!

Excellent - thank you both for your replies. Much appreciated.

Hi - we're after a bit of advice please... A room in a large college (built circa 1800's) is going to be used for large assemblies including those who may not be familiar with building layout. Floor space is 320M2, and has 2 opposite means of escape each taking occupants to a protected stairway which both discharge directly to fresh air. But both doorways are only 870mm...so when discounting one of them, the numbers reduce dramatically so the width of the doorway is being used for the capacity calculations. Now, the debate is whether we use BS9999 or DCLG guides? If we use BS9999 the width per person (for a B2 category occupancy) is 4.1mm which gives us a figure of approximately 200. But the DCLG guide would suggest that for a door width of 870mm would only be suitable for 100 occupants...?? We've asked the local Fire Service and they've said to use BS9999 (but have said they won't put this in writing). Another consultant we've approached has said that DCLG uses Building Regulations ADB as its guide and we shouldn't be using that either. Please can anyone help us by telling us what guide we should be using??? We will comply with whatever guide we need but just want to get things right and safe!!