Meady

That's a brilliant help - thank you Anthony.

Hi Can we ask your advice - we have an office block (ground, first and second floors). Each floor is approx. 360M2. Two protected stairways - each have 2 x FD30s lobby approaches. Question is; do we need FEA's inside each protected stairway at each landing in addition to them being inside (adjacent to) each fire exit door in the office accommodation area?? At present, we have 1 x 13A Water Mist and 1 x 2KG FEA on brackets in the office accommodation area adjacent to the exit doors. Our thinking was that the fire risk is in the office area so if staff have to travel in to the stairway to collect the FEA's, they will then have to return in to the office accommodation to tackle the flames...which is madness in our mind! BUT, the Fire Extinguisher company says we do HAVE to position additional extinguishers inside the stairway too...but BS5306-8 appears to show that as long as we have 2 x 13A on each level (plus CO2), we are fine?? So why should we have to have FEA's inside the office accommodation and then double up with exactly the same in the stairway itself?? We have ordered a 5KG CO2 extinguisher for the 415V electricity cupboard too. Any help/guidance much appreciated. Thank you.

Thanks Anthony.

Sorry - silly question time... This is a specific case; but is also a general question as to whether internal stairs must be protected if there is also a second means of escape being an external stair. An existing building which is being converted from a residential accommodation (small block of flats) in to an office/admin block. There is ample room for an external stair to be fitted. Built 2008. Three storeys (ground, first and second) plus basement/cellar. 60-min fire separation between basement/cellar and ground floor. Footprint of each floor is approximately 10m x 12m. L3 alarm system / emergency escape lighting being installed. Risers will be enclosed within 30-min protection. Standard construction (brick, breeze block, concrete floors, flat roof). Occupancy levels will be approximately 10 per floor (none in basement/cellar which is used for plant room / electrics). The client wants a complete open plan design with an open internal staircase. Building Control will be involved - client is at drawings/plans stage at present. The glazing along the external stair with 30-minute glass which is sealed closed. The fire door from first floor leading to external stair will also be FD30 standard/ Question: I just want to double check; is the open plan internal stair acceptable as long as; A) External escape stair is fully protected along route B) Travel distances from any point in the first & second floor levels are acceptable (less than 18m in single direction to only protected means of escape) C) Occupancy levels from each floor are less than 60 I've been reading BS9999 & ADB which I think is relevant as this is a complete conversion of a building. Item 18.7 of BS9999 in particular. Or am I misunderstanding this and does the internal stair also have to be protected?? In view of low occupancy levels; I think that only 1 means of escape from each floor is acceptable as long as the travel distances are within 18m? In your experience(s), are there any other compensatory features the client could consider which may make an open internal stair acceptable?? Higher levels of AFD perhaps? Sprinklers?? Any help or guidance in right direction much appreciated!! Sorry - new query for me!

Excellent - thank you again for your help.

Thank you Anthony and Tom again for your help - that's brilliant. Tom - thank you for pointing that out. I may be misreading this...but a note under ADB paragraph 2.19 states 2.20 to 2.51 are not applicable where the top floor is not more than 4.5m above ground level...so the fact there is a double negative in that sentence, does that mean that 2.20 to 2.51 are applicable only to buildings where top floor is higher than 4.5m??? I am guessing that 4.5m would be a single or two storey dwelling so these guides are not relevant to lower level flats??

This is a theoretical query as I'm doing some training and high rise blocks of flats has come up (not specific to Grenfell as the paper was written before the tragedy in 2017). The paper tells me to read ADB and BS9999 as well as the DCLG/GOV.COM guide for purpose built flats. I have been told by someone else in the industry (which is why i am querying this) that Grenfell complied with current building regs...I am a novice in the industry but find it hard to get my head around why a building which is 30m+ high would only have one means of escape (even with a stay put policy)?!?!? So, I have read what I thought would be the building regs (ADB 2010) to see what the current guide would be; but I cannot for the love of me find where it says in the ADB that a single stair is acceptable in a high rise block of flats?! Please can you steer me in the right direction??Article 2.19 and 2.20 to me reads that a single stair is only allowed up to floor levels of 4.5m?? I've read it time and time again and am just getting more and more confused! Is this now right and any block of flats with a floor above 4.5m must now have at least two means of escape once occupants are out of their flats and in the shared corridors?Any help always appreciated. My only thought was that, at the time of design and construction, Grenfell did conform with the building regs. and that the current ADB is not retrospective. Also, would the FSO 2005 see it as unreasonable/unpractical to install a second means of escape afterwards?? Sorry - lots of questions here...but any guidance would be much appreciated.

Thanks Tom.

Thank you Anthony...the guy that completed the FRA has said that the quarterly inspection is his own recommendation. He has suggested a quarterly test (rather than annual) because of the fact the doors do not automatically open when fire alarm is set-off. So he wanted more regular tests to make sure the green boxes work. I'm still a bit worried so we are thinking of a monthly test of all green boxes.

Does anyone know how often the little green override switches fixed next to electronically locked doors along exit routes need testing in-house? I've been pointed to BS7273-4:2015 and the maintenance section suggests every week in-house and every six-months by a competent person?? But, the FRA produced shows that the green boxes only need testing in-house every quarter to comply with British Standards so we're all really confused! Due to security, the doors do not release upon actuation of fire alarm, so we thought every quarter is a bit risky...but then again, every week is a bit much!! HELP!! :)

Do all final exits from a building (where there is a possibility that members of public entering may be wheelchair users) have to open in the direction of travel? Or can they open inwards? There is a Dental practice where they have suitable door widths for wheelchairs, a ramp at 1:12 ratio, disabled toilets, etc. But the main door used by all clients opens inwards?! I've had a look at Gov.com guide for disabled means of escape but cannot see it mentions this. Typically, occupancy is below 60 people so an inward opening door appears acceptable in some guides, but my only concern in that wheelchair users will not be able to open door quickly, or even block the exit completely?! Any guidance much appreciated as always.

Thank you guys for your help and guidance - much appreciated.

Thank you Tom and Anthony... Would you recommend I use the DCLG Guides instead?

If lobby doors leading to a protected stairway are 1200mm, but the stairway is 1000mm, which figure do I use for calculating max. occupancy capacity when using BS9999? Risk profile of building is A2. Also, a strange one, but the clear width of the stairs reduce further to 900mm at the very base! Building is a couple of hundred years old...

We are trying to calculate occupancy capacity levels and have a conflict of opinion... Three means of escape. Plenty of floor space. But, each door is a "penny-farthing" style with a 900mm self-closing door, plus a minor leaf of 300mm which is secured shut at all times with flush bolts at top and bottom of minor door leaf. So, should we be using 1200mm to calculate the capacity limits, or 900mm?? Someone has said 900mm but the other argument is that the minor leaf can be opened without need for a key (albeit with two motions needed to unbolt top and bottom bolts) so we should be using 1200mm. Any guidance much appreciated? I've tried to find something in BS9999 and ADB as well as DCLG guides but can't see anything which relates to this style of door when calculating occupancy levels.

Hi I am new to this world and am just starting to go out and carry out fire risk assessments with a mentor. However, the big thing that confuses me is when does a door need to be a fire door?? I understand that you need fire doors to compartment hazard areas such as kitchens, plant rooms, etc. But also escape routes... when does a corridor or passage way officially become an escape route? We went to a small health care building today. A small passageway / corridor [no more than 12m] had a mixture of fire doors and non-fire doors! All store cupboards along the passageway had fire doors. There were escape options at each end of the passageway / corridor - one was a 60min fire door-set and the other was an escape to fresh air. Why would some doors be fire doors and others not?! I thought that if there were 2 means of escape in different directions, and the travel distances were no greater than 25m/40m/60m [depending on hazard rating of building/area] then there was no need for a fire door. The maximum travel distance in today's example would have been 15m max! Any guides / tips on helping me work out when a door needs to be a fire door would be appreciated.

Hi - I'm after some advice please... recently completed a FSRA in a small charity shop. 3 members of staff [some elderly volunteers who are hard of hearing]. Customers = max of 10 on a very busy day! 1) Absolutely no form of emergency escape lighting at present - not even a candle or a torch! :) Working hours are 10am to 4pm, but i'm just worried that certain times of the year will mean the rear part of the building [both internally and externally] would be in darkness if power was lost. I've suggested bulk head units at rear exit [internally and externally] - i'm not too worried about the front entrance / exit as it has street lighting all year round. But is fixed emergency escape lighting over the top in this example?? Would torches be ok? 2) Open plan allows fairly good observation levels throughout. There is an old domestic style smoke detection unit installed at the rear of the ground floor level, adjacent to the rear fire escape exit. But they don't test it. Whilst staff interaction and observation is high, I'm concerned that members of staff could all be at the rear of shop sorting through donations. Or a lone worker could be working early / late and not know if a fire is occurring in the front of the shop which has no detection whatsoever. My thought was to ask for 10 year inter-linked units to be installed at front and rear of ground floor level. This will avoid all shadow of doubt that if a fire occurs anywhere, they will know and be able to escape. Any advice / tips always gratefully received...I'm fairly new to this and dont want to be seen as being a jobs worth and going over the top with things!! Pragmatic advice will go a long way...