Help Please

I work for a charity who provide care and support and accommodation to disabled people, these people live in a number of houses on our land, in April we are going to rent 10 properties to individual 1 ‘household’ (eg a family) who in turn will still provide support and care to non family members but will no longer be part of the charity with the local authority providing management of the houses - Each family will be self supporting and receive housing benefit from the residents. The tenancy agreement will be in the family name.  Currently all the houses have a fire alarm to L2 standard.

My question is who would be responsible for maintaining the fire alarm?.

 

Jason T

 

 

How many non family members will be living with each family? If there are two or less then they will be classed as lodgers and are a single family dwelling, if this is not the case this is a different matter.

I am not sure if this will help by asking this question here or if I need to pose a separate question on a separate thread.

I have come across a similar situation. I also work for a charity some of their properties are owned by a separate property company and the charity I work for provide the care.(Supported living) it is a bungalow which is set up like two small bedsits. It was recently sold to the brother of one of the residents and the other resident will remain. the charity will supply the care as normal. is there any requirements at all on the new  landlord to provide or maintain existing fire precautions.

It's most likely to be your responsibility as the landlord under the Housing Act.

Hi Tom

There could be up to 7 individuals not related to the family or each other. My view is they will need to register as an HMO but as the current landlord we are renting to the family so need to know our responsibility in terms of fire. As mentioned the property has an L2 alarm but as far as the lease this is way above what is required although we are aware of how the property will be used. In short we do not want to pay for the alarm to be maintained when a normal lease would just require smoke detection.

 

Jason T

Remember our lease is for a domestic property. The persons who are leasing the property will turn into HMO so I don't see how we will be responsible to provide or maintain to L2 standard. Surely they will take RP under article 3

Jason T

KGB - Assuming both tenants enter the property through the same door and then go to their bedsits, then there is common area and The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 (RR(FS)O) will apply. The new owner/landlord will be the Responsible Person and therefore required to implement the RR(FS)O, making him responsible for fire safety in the bungalow. 

Jason T - Without further information it is difficult to give a reasonable assessment, you need to give a better description of the properties are they houses or flats, number of floors, etc? How many non family persons will be living with each family and are the premises divided into the likes of bedsits or they living like a single family? Also is the local council acting as managing agents for the owners or are they the owners?

All dwellings are subject to the Housing Act but certain condition have to apply for them to be considered as HMO's and the local council will the arbiters of that.

Check out http://www.firesafe.org.uk/houses-in-multiple-occupation/

 

Hi Tom

These are houses, with a single front door and back door. The largest will be six bedrooms, facilities will be shared for example two bathrooms, one kitchen, living room. The main family will provide care and support to the other household members. Apart from the husband and wife no one else is related, these people claim housing benifits that will be paid to the family.

The charity I work with will cease to provide any care, we will simply be renting the house. if this was a normal lease we would only supply the standard detection etc. But as mentioned the house has an L2 fire alarm. 

Where do we draw the line, there was a suggestion to remove the current fire alarm and just fit smoke detection, however we are aware that the property will be used as HMO so want to leave it in situ but do not feel that we should have to pay to service and maintain a system above what is required.

It's a little messy at the moment

 

Jason T

In my opinion there are two pieces of legislation that apply The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 (RR(FS)O) to the common parts and the Housing Act 2004 (HA) to the whole of the premises. Under the RR(FS)O you have to decide who the Responsible Person is, because it is he/she that has to implement articles 8 to 22 of the RR(FS)O which includes testing and maintenance of the fire alarm.

The appropriate section of article 3 which defines the RP states

(i)   the person who has control of the premises (as occupier or otherwise) in connection with the carrying on by him of a trade, business or other undertaking (for profit or not); or

(ii)   the owner, where the person in control of the premises does not have control in connection with the carrying on by that person of a trade, business or other undertaking.

My interpretation would be the person who has control of the premises, would be the tenant also has become a landlord by subletting the house. Therefore they would be responsible for testing and maintenance of the fire alarm, but it would all depend on tenant’s agreements and the contract you have with the local council who carries out the maintenance.

Because it could be a HMO bedsit then the local council housing department who will inforce the HA will have their input and for more information about the Housing Act you should contact the local council housing department who may not use the above guidance.

The two enforcement authorities Fire and Rescue Service and Local Council usually have agreements who take the lead in enforcement procedures in these situations.

I would also suggest you talk to your solicitor for their advice.

As for the fire alarm and as it sounds likely to be a HMO bedsit the relevant British Standard would be BS 5839 part 6 which is for domestic dwellings and if the houses are three floors, then a Grade A LD2 would be required and this equates with what you have, a BS 5839 part 1 L2 system. If it is not then you need to study HOUSING – FIRE SAFETY Guidance on fire safety provisions for certain types of existing housing to decide the standard that is required.

Hi Tom

 

Thanks for your advice, the property has an L2 alarm, fire doors etc and has also undergone inspections from the fire service and they are happy with the current provisions. I agree that the tenant will be subletting and by doing so my interpretation is that it will become an HMO, at present the CQC class us a residential. In terms of maintenance the current landlord (who I advise) has stipulated they will be responsible for building maintenance and will pay for Gas / electrical inspection / test but feel the fire alarm maintenance should be paid for by them - hence my original question.

I have arranged a meeting with current landlord and other parties to discuss this further, as per your advice I intend to document responsibilities in the tenancy agreement.

 

Once again thank you all for your advice

Jason T

            You say the CQC class you a residential and if you mean residential care home then the premises is not a HMO it is clearly under the RR(FS)O and you have to define who the Responsible Person (RP) is. This person who has control of the premises will have a duty to implement articles 8 to 22 which includes testing and maintaining the fire alarm. I do not believe it is the Owner/Landlord it is more likely to be the Tenant/Sublet Landlord or the charity, who gives the orders. You should employ a fire risk assessor and discuss this situation face to face because he/she will need to know the full facts to give you a definitive answer.

 

 

 

 

I would strongly suggest you take specialist legal advice on this matter, especially as a landlord who claimed they had no liability after letting to a primary tenant who then sublet was recently successfully convicted for fire safety offences.

Warren Spencer at Blackhurst Budd is a specialist lawyer in the fire safety field having both successfully prosecuted on behalf of fire services and defended on behalf of Responsible Persons for over 160 cases.

http://www.blackhurstbudd.co.uk/fire-safety/ 

I agree with AB even better to take specialist legal advice this is not a straightforward situation and you need to provide a lot more information.

Hi AB & Tom

At present we are residential, have identified who the RP is and I have completed the fire risk assessments and identified the responsible person on all FRA, we have no concerns with our responsibility under the RRO and have also had numerous audits and inspections from the fire service. 

The properties to be let have received a fire risk assessment and meet all the required standards, this is where it gets a bit messy, each property to be let will retain all provisions  and our management of fire safety will cease with the tenants taking over.  We do have a solicitor on the case and my advice is to continue to service the fire alarm but claw the cost back.  We understand what is required as a landlord but feel the requirement to maintain a fire alarm should not come at our cost. As mentioned a new management company in partnership with the tenants will turn the property into an HMO. We have given permission for this to happen but my thinking is they would take on RP role. 

Meetings are arranged and I am sure we will bottom this out and get it detailed in the tenancy agreement 

 

Jason T

 

Hi Jason

Keep us informed I would be interested on the outcome.

Hi Tom

Just to let you know that as the landlord we have agreed to maintain the fire alarm, fire extinguishers etc. and claim some of the cost back in the rent.

Jason