Neil Ashdown MAFDI
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Posts posted by Neil Ashdown MAFDI
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Laminated fire glass is not toughened and so must be treated with care. Its the lamination that provides the fire and heat protection seethe video at
Some fire resisting glass is tempered rather than laminated and so can withstand greater shock. Contact a fire glass specialist and specify your requirements.
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Hi Eddie,
Fire performance products must be installed in accordance with supporting evidence from a fire test report or assessment. If you are proposing to over board a door to improve its fire separation performance make sure you refer to the product data sheets to check suitability of the board for that application. You will also find the above mentioned article, about upgrading doors, useful with regard to the numerous components of the door assembly that contribute to its fire and smoke separation performance.
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The flat entrance door as well as being a fire resisting door is essentially a security door too because it opens onto the common area. Therefore a face-fixed security chain like the one in the image below below is allowed.
It does not need to be fire rated because its purpose is solely security and it has no contribution towards the fire separation qualities of the door BUT it must not interfere with the self-closing action of the door.
You are right to fit thumb turns on the inside so as to aid safe escape from the flat in an emergency.
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You are correct to raise misalignment as an issue as it would affect the door's performance in a fire. The amount of misalignment permissible varies from zero to very little depending on the core construction of the door. Generally speaking a tube-core construction fire door will have zero but a completely solid core will have some tolerance.
Ideally you would know who the manufacturer is and check their installation data sheet but in many cases the manufacturer is unknown. The following links are worth a look.......https://www.falconpp.co.uk/media/1155/14_flamebreak_fire_door_installation.pdf they allow 1mm and http://www.hazlin.com/images/Halspan-Optima-FD30-Specific-fitting-instructions.pdf again 1mm
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I assume you have fire doors from the bedrooms to the hallways and landings?
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Hi,
Not a silly question at all. The doors you described are designated 'Fire Door Keep Locked' and do not usually have self-closing devices but it is a requirement that they are kept locked. They must be unlocked only for the short period when access is necessary.
These doors must be signed with the blue/white or blue/silver "FIRE DOOR KEEP LOCKED"signs. Signs must be prominent and clearly readable on the outside face of the door leaf at about 1500mm from floor level.
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Hi Fadi,
I would add that it is of course the 'lock-bolt or latch-bolt in its keep' that will help to hold the door closed in a fire situation. As far the fire performance tests are concerned the manufacturer will have test evidence for his products used in timber or metal doors. Please note that test results of components used in metal doors should not be used to substantiate performance for timber doors and vice versa.
Timber fire door manufacturers' data sheets and instruction manuals will specify the requirements for locks and latches as well as providing installation requirements.These documents are generally available for FD30 and FD60 on-line.
Regards, Neil.
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It may be useful to add that the HSE at http://www.hse.gov.uk/involvement/competentperson.htm defines Competent Person as.....someone who has sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other qualities that allow them to assist you properly.
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Hi Steve,
There is a legal requirement under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 for employers (and other Responsible Persons) to:
(a)take such general fire precautions as will ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the safety of any of his employees; and
(b)in relation to relevant persons who are not his employees, take such general fire precautions as may reasonably be required in the circumstances of the case to ensure that the premises are safe.
Article 17 of The Order says they......must ensure that the premises and any facilities, equipment and devices provided in respect of the premises under this Order or, subject to paragraph (6), under any other enactment, including any enactment repealed or revoked by this Order, are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair and Article 18 of The Order says.....The responsible person must, subject to paragraphs (6) and (7), appoint one or more competent persons to assist him in undertaking the preventive and protective measures.
Fire Doors and Escape doors are 'equipment and devices' and must be kept 'in an efficient state etc' (see above) therefore inspection must be part of the suitable maintenance regime. BS 9999 and BS 8214 recommend regular inspections of Fire Doors. You can find your nearest Certificated Fire Door Inspector at http://www.fdis.co.uk/inspector
Alternatively you could enrol on a suitable course at http://www.fdis.co.uk/qualify-with-fdis or https://www.bre.co.uk/news/New-dates-announced-for-fire-door-inspection-training-935.html or https://www.door-check.co.uk/training or https://www.firedoorscomplete.com/fire-door-training
My October blog at https://www.firedoorscomplete.com/single-post/2017/10/12/Fire-Door-Monthly-Fire-door-law-the-competent-person-and-relevant-training talks about competence and training.
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Fire resisting glass products have been available for many years but as with all fire and smoke compartmentation its about correct installation of the correct system so I would advise consulting a fire resistant glass expert. There's useful info on fire resisting glazing in the document 'A Guide to Best Practice in the Specification and Use of Fire-Resistant Glazed Systems' at http://www.ggf.org.uk/publication/FRGbest
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Hi Tony59,
Being built in 2000 the doors should be fire doors. You reference "DALE 90623" so the doors are most likely made by Dale Joinery in which case I suggest you contact Ian Cavanagh CertFDI via the search facility (he's based at Rochdale but should be able to help over the phone) at www.fdis.co.uk/inspector for advice.
Kind regards, Neil.
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Hi Melanie,
Did the other companies say why they were unable to help? From what you have said above it appears that you are unable to source a cat flap that meets the relevant standard ( BS 476 part 31.1 or EN 1634-3) for smoke control. The other companies can supply letter plates that meet that standard but possibly for a cat flap, being different by the nature of its operation, it may not be possible.
I cannot see that the product you have referenced above meets the above standards.
With regard to sourcing and installing a fire door for your flat entrance I would advise you to contact the authority that has requested that you carry out this work. Then provide those details to the supplier / installer so that they may meet the authority's specification / requirements.
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Hi Bristolboy,
Whilst waiting for a reply you could try the various documents here http://www.ifsa.org.uk/documents/ for advice.
Kind regards, Neil.
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If the product was suitable they would reference the relevant BS / EN number. How did you get on with the companies I mentioned, these companies specialise in fire and smoke separation products for doors?
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The Intumescent Fire Seals Association website at www.ifsa.org.uk provides information about various compliant options to meet the requirements. It also discusses the drawbacks and advantages of different types of seal.
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Hi Melanie,
"This Document addresses the need for sealing the threshold of a fire resistant door assembly, stating that if the gap at the threshold exceeds 3mm, then a threshold seal must be used."
am I right in thinking that if the gaps are less than 3mm then legally that is ok?" If the threshold gap at the bottom of your flat entrance door does not exceed 3mm then you will not require a threshold seal.
As far as the cat flap is concerned I would advise you to consult the manufacturers/suppliers previously advised with regard to evidence of fire and smoke performance before taking further action.
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You don't say if you are referring to new fire door installations or existing ones and this makes a difference because:
1) If you have had new fire doors installed the installer should be able to provide you with fire and smoke performance certification for the products used to make up the fire door assembly. The standards applying to fire and smoke performance for fire door components are BS 476 part 20/22, BS476 part 31.1 , BSEN1634-1 and BSEN1634-3 (the list here is not exhaustive). He should also be able to provide confirmation that the doors have been installed in accordance with the door manufacturers instructions and BS8214:2016.
2) If you mean existing doors then you must refer to Article 17 of the Fire Safety Order ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/article/17/made ) to ensure that fire safety devices (this includes fire doors and escape doors) are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair.
With regard to your question about separate certificates or one certificate for all doors, this would depend on numerous factors, not least, on whether the fire doors are all the same product with identical components. My advice is to seek advice from a Certificated Fire Door Inspector at www.fdis.co.uk/inspector He or she is the Competent Person as referenced by the 2005 Fire safety Order.
Hope this helps, Neil.
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Hi Tim,
From what you say it seems like the front door to your flat opens onto a common area that would be used, by other residents, in a fire to enable them to reach a place of safety. If this is so then your flat entrance door needs to be an FD30s fire door to resist spread of fire for thirty minutes and restrict the spread of cold smoke too.
Hope this helps, Neil.
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Hi Melanie,
I do sympathize and commend your approach in trying to find a solution. Fire door compliance is about using tested fire and smoke separation products, backed up by evidence of performance and installation of these products should be in accordance with the manufacturers instructions so as to ensure performance in real life.
One area where smoke performance for a cat flap could be a problem is maintaining the seals against general wear and tear? My advice is to contact manufacturers of intumescent seals and smoke seals to discuss possible solutions. You could try: Mann McGowan http://www.mannmcgowan.co.uk/ , Lorient UK http://www.lorientuk.com/products/acoustic-seals-smoke-seals-and-fire-seals-for-door-assemblies and Envirograf https://envirograf.com/product/surface-mounted-intumescent-fire-firesmoke-seals/
Kind regards, Neil.
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Hi Melanie,
You are clearly taking a responsible and sensible approach. Assuming everything else is OK with the fire door and that self-closing and fire and cold smoke separation is compliant the main area you could have a problem is the cat flap. You say its draught proof and 'so would prevent cold smoke' but if the authorities require it could you provide evidence of performance to 'BS 476 Part 31.1 smoke penetration through door-sets' ?
I am being deliberately pessimistic here because the fire and cold smoke performance of flat entrance doors is critical to the safety of other inhabitants and the fire door should meet the cold smoke restriction requirements of the above standard. See Tom's comment from November last year (above).
Might be worth asking your supplier if they supply an intumescent fire rated cat flap that has also been successfully tested for cold smoke spread though? If they don't supply one.............then why is that............... and (how) can they recommend one for a flat entrance door?
Kind regards, Neil.
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For fire resisting doors you need to fit the correct (circular blue & white / blue & aluminium or stainless steel) signs. There's lots of information here http://firecode.org.uk/Code of Practice 2009 Issue 3.pdf in section 10 of 'Code of Practice: Hardware for Fire and Escape Doors'.
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Presumably the products you fitted in your fire door came with evidence of fire and smoke performance to BS 476 pt 20/22 (or EN 1634-1)and BS 476 Pt 31.1 respectively? If they did not you are likely to have a problem in demonstrating suitability for installation in to a fire door.
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Hi Geoff,
This type of closing device was commonly fitted to FD20 internal fire doors inside flats and houses. Many hardware suppliers call them 'slammers' as they are not adjustable for closing strength and speed but are cheaper to buy than adjustable self-closers. They are not suitable for flat entrance doors and fire doors in common areas as they are not compliant with regulations that require such devices to be a minimum of power-size 3 to BS EN 1154.
If you have them fitted to doors inside your flat or house there is no legal requirement to upgrade, indeed a change in building regulations no longer requires fire doors protecting staircases in dwelling houses and fire doors protecting inner lobbies in flats to be self-closing. There is guidance here https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/fire-safety-purpose-built-04b.pdf
However, people do sometimes regard these self-closers to be a nuisance and often remove the complete device or sometimes just the chain itself. Any alteration to a fire door may affect its performance so if a concealed closer is removed then the void left inside the door / doorframe must be competently repaired.
What certification is needed to be allowed to install fire doors?
in Fire Doors and Accessories
Posted
Hi Kevin,
I am assuming here we are talking about timber based fire doors? The important thing is that the fire door is fitted in strict accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions. Depending on the manufacturer those instructions may make reference to the requirements of BS 8214 the Code of practice for Timber based fire door assemblies. If so you will need to refer to both documents (the British Standard and the manufacturer's instructions) for component selection and installation criteria.
If the fire door leaf is certificated under the scope of the BWF-Certifire scheme you will find a label on the top edge of the door leaf. On this label you can find the manufacturers contact details and a number with the prefix 'CF'. If you go to https://www.warringtoncertification.com/certifire/technical-schedules.html you can find the data sheet applicable to that CF number. That data sheet will provide information about component compatibility and installation requirements.
The data sheet and installation instructions may not provide information about installation of cold-smoke seals so it will be helpful to get information from the Intumescent Fire Seals Association website at http://www.ifsa.org.uk/documents/
FENSA are correct there is no legal requirement for certification for the installer but evidence of fire (and smoke) performance is required for the products. In England and Wales the 2005 Fire Safety Order refers to the 'competent person' so as you are installing fire safety devices you may have an obligation under the scope of fire safety law as that competent person. Competent Person is defined at the HSE website http://www.hse.gov.uk/involvement/competentperson.htm
Finally, training for fire door installers and maintainers is available and so is worth some consideration.
Hope this helps, Neil.