delboy

Thnks for replies. I am trying to look ahead as to what might be yet another section 20 placed upon us (£120 a pop for each leaseholder x34), just for issuing it.) Another nice little earner for the MA. My own thoughts are those of Neil, in that Windsor doors glazing is 10cm wide. In fact to show how strong that is, on one of the cross corridor doors (we have 24+side panels) about 4 years ago, an angry young man (not resident) pushed the door so hard that it slammed into a wall where there happened to be a lighting button, the glass was cracked but nothing fell out. (Joke is that despite having had 3 door inspections since then including Fire checks, the door still has not been fixed) This sounds like it could be difficult to defend with no real concrete legislation in place on the topic. (Bit like the fact that we are having flat door checks done by a company every year on a building that is only 3 floors tall , and under 11 mtrs, and yet no Fire Door instruction leaflet ever having been issued to occupiers, which I believe is the legal case in buildings under 11 mtrs)

As I have mentioned before we have Windsor Type doors with 10 panels per door, 5 at the bottom, up to 80cm x 10 cm wide. The safety report seems to me to be angling at having those replaced with glass that is both Fire and Safety rated. It is the simple legality of the actual need to do that. If any new legislation is not retrospective then we are prepared to argue next year when the MA issues yet another section 20 ..

The works to attend to the FRA done in 2020, are still not completed. All money was paid in 2021 under section 20. But in the meantime the MA had another FRA done in 2024, and last year this H&S report as well. Nothing bad about the FRA announced (despite not all works completer as in some flat doors still not either replaced or rectified). But it is the H&S report to which I am referring, where it goes into detail about the cross corridor doors, which would appear to be OK from a Fire Risk point of view, but its the H&A report that goes on about the Wired glass being OK for Fire Safety, but they pose a Health risk from a breakage point of view. Then the fact that BR forbid them being used. I fully understand that todays BR do not mean retrospective action, but as you say some MAs will try it on. I just wanted to be sure that giving present situation we could not be forced to replace the glass.

Total update to the FRA done in 2020...............still in August 2025, we have no certification to say that our block meets the regulations. The cross corridor doors were not replaced but updated with new hinges etc. But late last year unbeknown to us the MA had another FRA done along with a Safety report done. I now have a copy of that report (had to be dragged out) and one thing I notice is that a part of that goes into detail about the cross corridor doors and the Wired glass. It says that this is contrary to` Building Reg`s and consideration should be given to changing the glass, up to 80cm, (so 5 panels per door) using Fire/Safety glass. I have looked at glass that is both safety and fire proof and there is only one, Pyrostop Glass The cost of this is enormous, has anyone else come across this, and can New BR be forced upon us???

Here is an update to this now old post. After many attempts to get the MA to see sense, they finally agreed to meet another Fire company to look at the cross lobby doors...............upshot of that is that they were told that new doors are not needed, due to the distance of flat doors from stairways ...so a huge saving to leaseholders in unnecessary expense, due to dogmatic approach bt MA. However despite that, no works have, as yet, been carried out from the FRA recommendations done in June 2020 !!!!! Now they are telling us that we must have annual checks, both internal and external. to all flat doors So now another discussion ensues........The blocks of PB flats are less than 11mtrs tall, at the height of the top floor floor (In fact its only a 3 storey property, GF/FF/SF). As I read the Regulation 10 of the updated Fire Safety report (Feb 2023) only if a building is more than 11mtrs tall (at level of top floor floor) is an annual check required. Am I reading this all wrong? Of course from my viewpoint I would say that any/all occupiers, whether owner occupiers or tenants should do this every day, let alone every year. As far as I see it it is just another tick box exercise, to cover the Freeholder, because like an MOT on a car, its only good on the day its done, and therefore, only suggests safety on 1 day out of 365.t day

If there is a Stay Put policy in place in a PB block, is this necessary??

Have a FD30 Fire Door, from 1990. Door has been upgraded with Overhead Closer and new Fire rated hinges. Originally he door had a perko chain. Can I leave that in place? Or is it required that it is removed? If it needs to be removed what would I use to fill the hole left in the door? Would a Fire Stop putty be OK, and painted ?

Hi Yes, me too, and other leaseholders. I have no problem is some extra work being. The really annoying thing is that on the last FRA in 2018, things like the hinges were reported, and all the work was done, at some considerable cost. New managing agents since then, of course they use their own tame Fire Risk assessors, different assessor, different result !!! I can see this palava going on at each FRA in future, always finding something to spend our money on. Fair enough if its really needed, but........................

Thanks, really interesting...they are actually quoting for the doors like this (image attached from your site), and are saying that they can no longer use doors like the existing ones? ...........Not allowed. (local safety officer, still unknown) As you can appreciate they will just not match up in any way and look hideous, without matching frames, and then the cost will more than double But if they are NOT allowed, how can they leave the side glazed frames in place? Which part is not liked....a 44mm solid hardwood door or the glazing. And you can see that the frame also has a side glazed attached to the wall. No mention of new frames is mentioned at all, despite being space to say that (well not until they start I wouldn`t be surprised). In fact they do mention that sealant is needed between frame and wall, for which they have included a cost £130 per door frame This is fast becoming an issue. Section 20 has been issued and looks like they will railroad this through.

Thank you so much for your replies. Further I have found the detailed wordings from the Door assessments. I cannot look at all cross doors in all flats but I can look at the double doors shown on my image. So referring to their observations regarding these particular doors they comment as follows: Has the door got a Fire Door label?................................................................Answer....,solid construction..........No Fire label.................NEW DOORS REQUIRED If not, can you confirm it is a nominal Fire Door.............................................Answer...Yes. Is the Frame firmly attached to the wall?........................................................Answer....No...gaps between wall and frame..........Install Fire stopping Is the frame/door leaf consistent 3mm.?........................................................Answer....NO.......Result....Will be resolved when fitting new doors. Are the intumesent/cold smoke seals in place?............................................Answer.YES...........result....supply and install new smoke seals !!!! No intumesecent seals continues to the glass..............................................Answer......Not required as new doors will be fitted That is a summary of any negative results to their questions. I would admit that in my own opinion there is minor works to satisfy some of issues raised. The only one I am unsure about is the Intumescent seals to the glazing. I guess that If that in itself is not up to standard then any other problem is irrelevant??

Here is an image of the doors as they are today. I heard that the company quoting for the job has spoken with a local Safety Officer (no idea who they are talking about) presumably from the council, but these flats are ALL private and nothing to do with the council. Doors are all sound but at 30 years old do have the odd nick on them, but thats about it as far as I can see.

Block of flats (PB) in 1990. 3 floors with one staircase and front and rear exits to ether car park or street. (1 mtr from bottom of stairs) On ground and first floor only there are corridors no more than 8 mtrs long containing 4 flats. Each corridor has a set of double doors from new. These doors are solid 44mm Windsor style doors with Georgian wired glass as from new. All frames have intumescent seals and one door has the same along one edge. All in good condition. Hinges were changed to G13 Fire Rated hinges 2 years ago , after a FRA. All flat doors have certified FD30 doors with overhead closers, G13 Fire rated hinges, and seals and conform to all latest specs (after Door assessment) We are now being told that the` Windsor style` cross corridor doors MUST be replaced with new doors. No reason is being given other than ` old ones do not comply` The doors have stickers (albeit 2017) from a fire door company saying that they were approved Fire Doors, in addition to having passed all previous FRAs. with the upgrade of the new hinges. Is there or has there been any change in policy and Law for the Managing agent to now enforce this??

Hi I have written on this topic before. But in September of last year (just after I had left my flat to go overseas) the service agents of this Purpose Built, 30 year old block of 34 flats over Ground, First and Second floors with 6 separate entrances and 3 stair cases, received a Door assessment, following a FRA. The Fire door assessors appear to have checked each door (but could not check mine as I was away). As I understand it my door failed the test !! My door is an original door in perfect condition, in the original Frame. I attach images of the door and strips, and Perko chain (which by the way works as it should and will close the door across the roller lock, from 20cms open. I can appreciate that the Hinges do not conform to the latest requirement and will need changing, and maybe some Fire proof strips placing under the new Fire rated ones. The intumescent strips are all perfect, albeit some gaps for lock and hinges. The door closes with correct gaps. I can see there is no intumescent strip along the bottom edge of the frame. The 47 mm door itself has a metal plug half way up which has been painted over, over the years, but still visible when I scratched the paint off. All interior doors in the flats also have plugs in every door, as well as Perko chains and Strips. I am assuming that the plugs indicate a Fire door, but do bot know anything else about them (colour is greeny/blue) We have been given until end June to either get the doors done ourselves or the service company will arrange for the work to be done, which I am told will simply be replacing the doors and adding closers. The buildings are alarmed for Fire with central alarm system without sprinklers. But instead of a `Get Out` policy a new regime of Stay Put is being introduced and the Alarm system decommissioned... Given what I have said and the images attached, would I be allowed to change the hinges, put smoke strip along the bottom edge of the door and put an outside top door closer on, and my door should then pass any tests?? Just an extra note....one of the leaseholders has already had his door changed (by a competent fitter !!) . They had to knock a big hole into the interior flat wall to accomondate an internal top door closer (see pic of my frame, with what would be same issue), the have fitted a new lock with no locking mechanism inside, fitted new plastic looking strips in the door frame, new Huge hinges x3, and also included a Perko chain. Result of all that lot is that the door will not close over the lock, (doesnt even get that far), a botched wall, and had to replace the ceiling above the door again to accommodate the internal closer,a total disgrace, and the fitter has told the tenant that it is OK !!!! This is why I do not want to allow any botch merchant near my flat. Look for any comments please

thks. I understand that others here are being asked change the doors completely !!! It looks to me as if this is an ideal situation to be doing things unnecessarily, we can be told anything. Are Perko chains OK on a 28 year old purpose built block of flats (ground/first and second only), if they close the entrance flat door??