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Ron

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  2. Flats - Four Floors - External Wall Survey

    in Fire Prevention

    Posted

    Good afternoon.  Can anyone please assist. In a block of flats when is an External Wall Survey needed for fire spread??. 

    The premises are 4 storey, no commercial premises, external walls are brick, UPVC windows, no infill panels in the wall, good compartmentation - visual survey completed. Good maintained fire doors and fire alarm systems.  Single stairs with 2 flats per floor.  Using a stay put evacuation for over 55's (specialized housing - no wardens on site).

    Used the The Government Fire Risk Assessment Prioritisation Tool  and it came out as low risk.  PAS 79-2 has some good info on the topic but to my knowledge it is still suspended.  Can anyone please point to current good guidance.  Don't want to go down the route of unnecessary  survey and expense.

     

    Thanks

  4. Owner Occupied Flat of communal stairway does not have any automatic fire detection

    in Fire Alarm Systems

    Posted

    Hi, has anyone got experience of the following?

    A two-storey purpose-built block of flats has a communal area from which all flats are accessed.  It was built in the 1980’s. It has a mixed fire alarm system. In the communal area there is a BS5839:Part 1, fire alarm system with smoke detection and sounders in each flat.  The rented flats all have BS5839:Part 6 standalone systems with heat detection in the kitchen and smoke detection in the hallway.  The anomaly is that flats which are owner occupied have varying systems, from battery operated smoke detection in the hallway and some owner-occupied flats do not have any automatic fire detection.

    Our concerns are the owner occupied flats, and ideally we would like to have a BS5839:Part 6 smoke detector installed in the flat hallway. 

    The question is, can the owner occupiers of flats accessed off the common areas be legally forced to have any form of smoke detection provided in their private flats.  Clearly it would be of benefit to them if they are at home and a fire occurs.  Such an alarm may also be heard in neighbouring flats. 

    I know the RRO does not apply, the Housing Act I’m not sure about it in relation to the problem raised?

    The Housing Health and Safety Rating System just seems to be relevant to Landlords.

    Can such an issue with an owner occupier of a flat, accessed of the common area, not having smoke detection in the flat normally be dealt with as part of the leasehold? 

    Your assistance is appreciated.

     

     

  7. Fire Alarm BS5839 Part1

    in Smoke Alarms

    Posted

    Hello, can anyone please advise. 

    Is there any guidance which provides info on when a 5839 system should be replaced or part replaced.  I have seen CIBSE part M which mentions - Fire detection and alarm systems 15 years  (Components include break-glass boxes, sounders, sensors, batteries, shutters, door fire curtains, exit detectors, smoke release vents, indicator and control panels and fire doors etc).

    My thoughts are that some detectors and equipment may be subject to extremes of temperature and perhaps be in humid atmospheres in dirty dusty environments.  Some are in heated office blocks, flats, schools, hotels, care homes etc.  Is is normal to carry out such planned preventative maintenance at such a frequency even though the systems are tested weekly and have 6 monthly maintenance.  The system are not plagued with false alarms or issues.  If a catastrophic failure occurred a Plan B contingency arrangement is in place.  Do you think its reasonable to not have a fixed change date for i.e. panel, detectors, call points etc.

    Many thanks

  9. Green Houses - Glass Houses Fire safety

    in Fire Prevention

    Posted

    Hi Tom - Thanks for your reply.

    Just as an update for the forum I looked at the following website in addition to the one Tom recommended.  I appreciate many of you will already be aware of this.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/schedule/2/made

    There is an exemption from The Building Regulations 2010 - CLASS 3 - Greenhouses and agricultural buildings  - See UK Statutory Instruments 2010 No. 2214 SCHEDULE 2.  One of the exemption criteria is that the building is provided with a fire exit which is not more than 30 metres from any point in the building - my thoughts are that this will be difficult to meet with the large developments which cover several acres or hectares.

    The following website provides further exemption detail:

    https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200128/building_control/38/building_regulations/2

    If exemption applies some works are exempt from the whole of the building regulations, others are only exempt from certain aspects.  A table is provided detailing what is exempt.

     

    Clearly the above information is an example of what applies to new build.  For those existing large glass houses which cover several hectares, typically for growing tomatoes, cucumbers, strawberries etc, I can only find the CLG fire safety guidance documents unless anyone knows otherwise!! 

    Thanks

  11. MF plasterboard ceiling - single sided

    in Passive Fire Protection

    Posted

    I have looked at the white guide and knauff guide at MF fire rated ceilings and there is lots of info.  However, I am trying to establish what fire resistance would be offered by a non fire rated 12.5mm plasterboard on a metal frame ceiling.  The MF is plasterboarded is on the lower side only and there is no risk in the void above.  I appreciate MF ceilings need various spacings for supports and hangers etc.  The plasterboard has no markings for manufacture.  Does anyone no where there is test data for such single sided  plaster boarded ceilings of any thickness (with 3mm skim).  Clearly it will be less than 30 minutes fire resistance but I am wondering if it would afford say 15 to 20 minutes which would allow time for persons to be evacuated from their bedrooms and adjoining corridor to a true FR30 compartment as a place of comparative safety.  A fire in the bedroom would need to spread through the single sided 12.5mm plasterboard MF ceiling, over the non full height partition to the corridor and pass through the corridor ceiling from the metal frame side to affect persons therein.  All ceiling penetrations would be FR30 rated.  Ideally the corridor should be a proper protected FR30 corridor but I am looking to see if I can find any information to make an informed calculation as to what fire resistance will be offered to the escape corridor.  From that point the Available Safe Escape Time can be gauged and from evidenced realistic fire scenarios an informed decision can be made as to whether the Required Safe Escape Time can be met (with a suitable safety margin).  Any pointers would be appreciated - I guess the major manufacturers of plaster boards do not give out BS476 FR test results on all plasterboards.  I assume to have such a test carried out as a one off would cost thousands of pounds.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks

  12. Gas meters escape routes.

    in Fire Risk Assessments

    Posted

    You may want to consider the Lacors Guide:

    https://www.rla.org.uk/docs/LACORSFSguideApril62009.PDF

    See Page 18  Para - 15.5

    Gas or electric meters and/or distribution boards should ideally not be sited in escape routes. However, it should be possible to relax this providing any gas meter is installed in accordance with the gas safety regulations and any electric meter is installed and sited in accordance with current IEE regulations. It is considered best practice to enclose such equipment in fire-resisting construction.

  14. Multi Storey External Process Plant

    in Fire Safety in Churches

    Posted

    Hi, to assist in completing a fire risk assessment can anyone offer guidance on the most suitable documents for assessing multi storey external plant with open grid stairways and walkways etc.   These are open to the elements.   The CLG suite of documents has fire safety risk assessments: factories and warehouses, but are there more relevant guidance documents which I can research and apply??

    Thanks

  15. Maglocks

    in Fire Exits

    Posted

    Hi, I did get a little lost with my lack of understanding on these units.  I hope you don't mind if I raise a query on the topic of magnetic locks.  They are frequently used in residential home on final exits and to segregate areas  IE residents with different mental capacity, limit access to stairways etc.

    If the magnetic locks fail to the open:

    1. on operation of the fire alarm,
    2. on failure/fault of the fire alarm,
    3. on electrical power failure,
    4. and on operation of a key pad

    Then why are manual green overrides necessary?

    Staff assist all residents and visitors to safety, key code pads are a balance between safety and escape.  Operation of normal fire alarm call points will release the maglocks - staff are aware.

    It still is common practice for some Enforcing Authorities to require the Green Override Call Points - can anyone explain what added value they provide??

    Thanks Ron

  16. Fire resistance of a ceiling

    in Fire Prevention

    Posted

    Hi Tom

    The research established that there are a myriad of different plasterboards, thicknesses and manufacturers. For the FR on some it depends on roof truss spacing, nogging & nail spacing etc etc. Whilst the aim was to determine the rating of existing ceilings below roof voids without flooring above I didn't achieve that. On some you can see the boarding is pink and can google data printed on the boarding to further the research.

    As part of my research I contacted various manufacturers who simply refer to there guidance docs/ data but you can't always ID who manufactured the boarding. Different manufacturers have different methods which go with their boarding to establish i.e. 30 min FR. I did not find anything published for single 12.5mm plasterboard FR rating with no flooring above. Other than ie fireline boarding.

    i contacted companies which test normal plasterboard for fire ratings and was informed that manufacturers do have fire ratings for normal plasterboards. Whilst they are not 30 mins the info was not shared with me as their clients have paid for those tests. They were willing to conduct tests on any plasterboards for me at a cost.

    Thanks to those who get involved with my initial enquiry.?

  18. Fire resistance of a ceiling

    in Fire Prevention

    Posted

    Hi Tom - thanks for your replies.  The thread has not had much activity so far.  I have looked at the information and links & the Rock wool flexi guide offers other ways for a 30 min ceiling/floor beyond the British Gypsum White Book.  On one of the threads a person mentions standard 12.5mm plasterboard single sided offering 15 to 20 minutes fire resistance - does anyone have any evidence of this???  I telephoned British Gypsum Technical helpline today but they can only offer solutions from the White Book.

    Does anyone have any evidence of what a ceiling offers in terms of fire resistance made up of skimmed 12.5mm plasterboard fixed to 38mm roof trusses with 150mm rockwool infill between trusses.

    Thanks

  19. Fire resistance of a ceiling

    in Fire Prevention

    Posted

    Hi All

    I wonder if you can assist.  

    On the top floor in a care home the ceiling is 12.5mm plasterboard fixed to roof trusses not less than 38mm thick.  The plasterboard is skimmed and there is about 150mm of rockwool above.  This arrangement covers the top floor bedrooms, escape corridor and elec room, sluice room, clinic room and lounge etc.  The roof void above the protected area of 10 beds has cavity barriers and is free of storage.  The concern is the escape corridor and risk rooms may not give 30 mins fire resistance at ceiling level. The plasterboard is not fire rated and a fire ie in the elec room, or a bedroom could pass through the ceiling and spread in to what should be a protected corridor or neighbouring bedroom.  In the British Gypsum White Book such an arrangement with a 12.5mm fire line/board would give a 30 minute rating from the room/corridor side of the ceiling.  Does anyone know what fire rating single 12.5mm skimmed plasterboard offers? It may be that the fire breaking into the roof void and then spreading down in to a room within the protected area may take longer than 30 minutes.

    Are there any documents which has the result of approved fire tests for such designs?? Basically i just want to ensure the existing arrange is safe or plan a cost effective solution.

    Hope it all makes sense.  Thanks

     

  20. electro magnetic locks on doors in residential care premises

    in Fire Exits

    Posted

    Hi Anthony B - thanks for your reply.  I looked in the DCLG resi care guide but did not find much other than :

    Page  94: - Means of escape – security

    It is accepted that in many care home situations conflicts between the needs for means of escape and security may arise, particularly in premises which provide accommodation for people with mental illness, where it may be essential to maintain a high level of supervision during an evacuation.

    In areas where security is important a properly designed and managed interface between staffing levels, installed fire safety measures and security measures should be sufficient to permit staff controlled evacuation systems. Any solution proposed, that includes security controls on escape routes, must be discussed and agreed with the relevant enforcing authorities, care provider and other relevant bodies.

    However the DCLG GUIDE Healthcare Premises (does not apply to resi Homes) but P138 has a lot of useful info.

    Based on this the green over rides are not a must.

     

    Thanks

  22. electro magnetic locks on doors in residential care premises

    in Fire Exits

    Posted

    Hi All

    In a residential care home with electro magnetic locks can you advise on the following. The home has areas with people who have mental health issues.  As such these wings are secure and staff and visitors enter via key pads - entering the numbers.  The locks fail to the open on power failure and on operation of the fire alarm system.  To escape staff can aid residents out.  I have noticed some homes also have green break glass overrides adjacent to the door as well.  Are these additional overrides really necessary?

    Thanks

     

  23. Fire safety in registered residential care home

    in Fire Prevention

    Posted

    Hi All

    Please provide a view on the safety measures when a large residential home provides bathrooms with electric powered chairs for hoisting persons in and out the bath.  They are a permanent fixture.

    Do you consider that in view of the introduced risk a SC Fire door should be fitted along with heat detection linked in to the main system.  5 yearly elec tests are conducted on fixed installations but acrylic bath do burn well and give off lots of smoke.

    Thanks

     

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