Hello,
I am living in an ordinary Victorian house in London converted in the 1980s into 5 flats. One is a garden flat and the other 4 have a common entrance. We are all leaseholders except one (which shares the common entrance) where the leaseholder has rented the flat. The management company is insisting we need a fire alarm, extinguishers etc but I'm not sure that this is true.It is all domestic accommodation.
Do you think we are an HMO?
Regards
Chris
1
HMO or not??
Started by ChrisB, Jun 22 2011 05:45 PM
9 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 04 July 2011 - 09:03 AM
ChrisB, on 22 June 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:
Hello,
I am living in an ordinary Victorian house in London converted in the 1980s into 5 flats. One is a garden flat and the other 4 have a common entrance. We are all leaseholders except one (which shares the common entrance) where the leaseholder has rented the flat. The management company is insisting we need a fire alarm, extinguishers etc but I'm not sure that this is true.It is all domestic accommodation.
Do you think we are an HMO?
Regards
Chris
I am living in an ordinary Victorian house in London converted in the 1980s into 5 flats. One is a garden flat and the other 4 have a common entrance. We are all leaseholders except one (which shares the common entrance) where the leaseholder has rented the flat. The management company is insisting we need a fire alarm, extinguishers etc but I'm not sure that this is true.It is all domestic accommodation.
Do you think we are an HMO?
Regards
Chris
Go to http://www.firesafe....ple-occupation/ this my help.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution. Scotland and Northern Ireland has differing legislation
#3
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Posted 04 July 2011 - 11:24 AM
Further to my above posting I should say even if you premises is not a HMO then the common parts are still subject to the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005. This means the common parts require a fire risk assessment and this is maybe what the landlord has done and is implementing the findings of the fire risk assessment.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution. Scotland and Northern Ireland has differing legislation
#4 Guest_Ryan Mcmullan_*
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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:01 PM
The premises in question would not be classed as a HMO. Though because the building has been converted to self contained flats it may need an AFD system (class of which is dependant on height of building etc), emergency lighting etc. as stated within the LACoRS manual.The LACoRS manual would apply if :
Whether the flat is freehold or leasehold is of no relevance, it only has a bearing on who the responsible person may be and not what regulations of standards may apply.
The house or building converted into self-contained flats
when converted did not (and does not) meet
the building standards under the Building Regulations
1991Whether the flat is freehold or leasehold is of no relevance, it only has a bearing on who the responsible person may be and not what regulations of standards may apply.
#5
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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:44 PM
Ryan Mcmullan, on 07 January 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:
Whether the flat is freehold or leasehold is of no relevance, it only has a bearing on who the responsible person may be and not what regulations of standards may apply.
Whether the flat is freehold or leasehold does have relevance when deciding if a premises is a HMO. check out Housing Act 254 1c / 254 4a / 257 2b / 257 4a
In article 3 I do not see where freehold or leasehold has any relevance.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution. Scotland and Northern Ireland has differing legislation
#6
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Posted 09 January 2012 - 07:19 PM
Tom you have taken what I have said out of context, I am answering the question at hand. The basis of the question is whether or not they need to fit an AFD and her arguement being are the flats as a whole classed as a HMO, if the flats where all leashold this would not make the premises a HMO so it has no relevance!
#7
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Posted 10 January 2012 - 04:50 PM
Ryan first of all welcome, your presence is much appreciated.
Part of the question asked was, is the premises a HMO and it was not stated they were self-contained flats but like you I suspect they are and consequently not a HMO.
My point was when trying to establish if it is a HMO one of the details you need to establish is the tenancy and if a lease is for more than 21 years or owner occupied it is relevant.
Also I think Chris thought that if it wasn't a HMO then a fire risk assessment would not be required consequently I went on to say that although it is may not be a HMO it will still be subject to the RR(FS)O and a fire risk assessment on the premises common areas would be required.
Sorry to be pedantic but very rarely do you get all the information you require to give definitive response so I tend to point the questioner where they can find the answer and allow them work it out for themselves.
Part of the question asked was, is the premises a HMO and it was not stated they were self-contained flats but like you I suspect they are and consequently not a HMO.
My point was when trying to establish if it is a HMO one of the details you need to establish is the tenancy and if a lease is for more than 21 years or owner occupied it is relevant.
Also I think Chris thought that if it wasn't a HMO then a fire risk assessment would not be required consequently I went on to say that although it is may not be a HMO it will still be subject to the RR(FS)O and a fire risk assessment on the premises common areas would be required.
Sorry to be pedantic but very rarely do you get all the information you require to give definitive response so I tend to point the questioner where they can find the answer and allow them work it out for themselves.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution. Scotland and Northern Ireland has differing legislation
#9
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Posted 27 January 2012 - 04:28 PM
I am afraid there is no such thing as short description on this subject the only person who can give definitive response to your question is the local housing department. But you could try http://www.firesafe....ple-occupation/ for some information and the flow chart tries to. HMO Definition
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution. Scotland and Northern Ireland has differing legislation
#10
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Posted 28 January 2012 - 12:10 PM
Hi Ted
HMO
House in multiple occupation, as defined in section 254 of the Housing Act 2004
Meaning of “house in multiple occupation” (please check at legilation.gov.uk for the latest version)
(1) For the purposes of this Act a building or a part of a building is a “house in multiple occupation” if—
(a) it meets the conditions in subsection (2) (“the standard test”);
(b ) it meets the conditions in subsection (3) (“the self-contained flat test”);
(c ) it meets the conditions in subsection (4) (“the converted building test”);
(d) an HMO declaration is in force in respect of it under section 255; or
(e) it is a converted block of flats to which section 257 applies.
(2) A building or a part of a building meets the standard test if—
(a) it consists of one or more units of living accommodation not consisting of a self-contained flat or flats;
(b ) the living accommodation is occupied by persons who do not form a single household (see section
258);
(c ) the living accommodation is occupied by those persons as their only or main residence or they are to
be treated as so occupying it (see section 259);
(d) their occupation of the living accommodation constitutes the only use of that accommodation;
(e) rents are payable or other consideration is to be provided in respect of at least one of those persons'
occupation of the living accommodation; and
(f) two or more of the households who occupy the living accommodation share one or more basic
amenities or the living accommodation is lacking in one or more basic amenities.
(3) A part of a building meets the self-contained flat test if—
(a) it consists of a self-contained flat; and
( b ) paragraphs ( b ) to (f) of subsection (2) apply (reading references to the living accommodation
concerned as references to the flat).
(4) A building or a part of a building meets the converted building test if—
(a) it is a converted building;
( b ) it contains one or more units of living accommodation that do not consist of a self-contained flat or
flats
(whether or not it also contains any such flat or flats);
(c ) the living accommodation is occupied by persons who do not form a single household (see section 258);
(d) the living accommodation is occupied by those persons as their only or main residence or they are to be
treated as so occupying it (see section 259);
(e) their occupation of the living accommodation constitutes the only use of that accommodation; and
(f) rents are payable or other consideration is to be provided in respect of at least one of those persons'
occupation of the living accommodation.
(5) But for any purposes of this Act (other than those of Part 1) a building or part of a building within
subsection (1) is not a house in multiple occupation if it is listed in Schedule 14.
(6) The appropriate national authority may by regulations—
(a) make such amendments of this section and sections 255 to 259 as the authority considers appropriate
with a view to securing that any building or part of a building of a description specified in the regulations
is or is not to be a house in multiple occupation for any specified purposes of this Act;
( b ) provide for such amendments to have effect also for the purposes of definitions in other enactments
that operate by reference to this Act;
(c ) make such consequential amendments of any provision of this Act, or any other enactment, as the
authority considers appropriate.
HMO
House in multiple occupation, as defined in section 254 of the Housing Act 2004
Meaning of “house in multiple occupation” (please check at legilation.gov.uk for the latest version)
(1) For the purposes of this Act a building or a part of a building is a “house in multiple occupation” if—
(a) it meets the conditions in subsection (2) (“the standard test”);
(b ) it meets the conditions in subsection (3) (“the self-contained flat test”);
(c ) it meets the conditions in subsection (4) (“the converted building test”);
(d) an HMO declaration is in force in respect of it under section 255; or
(e) it is a converted block of flats to which section 257 applies.
(2) A building or a part of a building meets the standard test if—
(a) it consists of one or more units of living accommodation not consisting of a self-contained flat or flats;
(b ) the living accommodation is occupied by persons who do not form a single household (see section
258);
(c ) the living accommodation is occupied by those persons as their only or main residence or they are to
be treated as so occupying it (see section 259);
(d) their occupation of the living accommodation constitutes the only use of that accommodation;
(e) rents are payable or other consideration is to be provided in respect of at least one of those persons'
occupation of the living accommodation; and
(f) two or more of the households who occupy the living accommodation share one or more basic
amenities or the living accommodation is lacking in one or more basic amenities.
(3) A part of a building meets the self-contained flat test if—
(a) it consists of a self-contained flat; and
( b ) paragraphs ( b ) to (f) of subsection (2) apply (reading references to the living accommodation
concerned as references to the flat).
(4) A building or a part of a building meets the converted building test if—
(a) it is a converted building;
( b ) it contains one or more units of living accommodation that do not consist of a self-contained flat or
flats
(whether or not it also contains any such flat or flats);
(c ) the living accommodation is occupied by persons who do not form a single household (see section 258);
(d) the living accommodation is occupied by those persons as their only or main residence or they are to be
treated as so occupying it (see section 259);
(e) their occupation of the living accommodation constitutes the only use of that accommodation; and
(f) rents are payable or other consideration is to be provided in respect of at least one of those persons'
occupation of the living accommodation.
(5) But for any purposes of this Act (other than those of Part 1) a building or part of a building within
subsection (1) is not a house in multiple occupation if it is listed in Schedule 14.
(6) The appropriate national authority may by regulations—
(a) make such amendments of this section and sections 255 to 259 as the authority considers appropriate
with a view to securing that any building or part of a building of a description specified in the regulations
is or is not to be a house in multiple occupation for any specified purposes of this Act;
( b ) provide for such amendments to have effect also for the purposes of definitions in other enactments
that operate by reference to this Act;
(c ) make such consequential amendments of any provision of this Act, or any other enactment, as the
authority considers appropriate.
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